Darn. And here I thought my preemptive strike at the sins of the right would be at least somewhat effective. What does one have to do to not have Tu quoque pop up?
wjca
5 hours ago
i haven’t done the research, but i’d love to see someone survey these minors to see if they might simply be sidestepping the gender norms that everyone is suddenly telling them they have to conform to because they’re simply not ready or not interested.
I think that’s exactly correct. Although you phrase it better than my past efforts to articulate it, so I may steal it.
In addition to not ready and not interested, I think I’d add something like “interested in things that, in their immediate environment, are considered exclusive to the other gender.” Especially in the more conservative reactionary parts of our society, I suspect (having also not done the research) that happens quite a bit. Sometimes the kids eventually skedaddle to somewhere that they can pursue their interest. But others may have absorbed the gender norms of their home, and conclude that they need to alter themselves rather than their location/environment.
russell
5 hours ago
Russell: Those were all policies from the DSA website.
Noted. My apologies for characterizing them as straw men.
My own view is that the DSA is having a moment. I don’t mean that in a dismissive way, I just mean that their positions are getting attention right now, not least because people increasingly feel like they are being screwed by our current political and economic climate.
There are at most a handful of people running for or holding office that associate themselves with the DSA. AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Mamdani are notable examples. The three I’ve mentioned have endorsed defunding the police. AOC and Mamdani have moved away from that position, I’m not sure where Tlaib stands now. Basically, when faced with the need to actually govern, AOC and Mamdani at least have “dialed back” their more extreme statements to positions that make more sense in the real world.
It’s also worth noting that the folks I’ve mentioned here represent places with large populations of people who suffer most from the issues the DSA is most vocal about. Law enforcement and incarceration, access to health care and affordable housing, racism, environmental harms. The DSA platform seems extreme and outrageous to a lot of people, but the conditions under which a lot of people live are equally dire. If your job is representing those people, if you are their advocate, you need to address all of that. The DSA positions are more or less the outer left boundary of American political discourse, but they raise issues that most folks would prefer to ignore.
I’ll also say that I personally am more than fine with a lot of the DSA platform. Many or even most of the specific proposals are unrealistic, and are unlikely to ever be implemented, see also the walk back from “woke 1” that so many folks are now doing. But the problems they raise are real and deserve attention and action.
Regarding transgender folks, in my opinion the problem starts with thinking of it as some kind of illness or dysfunction, i.e. “gender dysphoria” or “gender confusion”. Folks I know who are transgender are generally not confused – they are very clear about how they see themselves. The problem they face is trying to find a way to fit into a society that generally views them as weirdos and freaks.
Some people feel themselves to be a different gender than what their genitalia would indicate. I don’t know why, I don’t think anyone knows why. There have always been people like that. Some cultures recognize it and value it, some don’t. Ours generally doesn’t.
And all of that is a different thing than the phenomenon of young people considering themselves non-binary or queer. I generally agree with cleek, that a lot of kids and young adults simply “don’t want to be told what to be”. They want the space and time to figure it all out for themselves. Which is, IMO, understandable in the highly sexualized and porn-ridden world they are coming up in.
I understand the concern about protected spaces for women, but to be honest I think there is a lot of fear-mongering there. There really is no epidemic of transgender people assaulting women in bathrooms. Sports is a different issue, especially from puberty on, I’m not sure what the right thing is to do there, or if there is a one-size-fits-all answer.
Oddly enough, in Massachusetts schools boys can play on girls’ teams and vice versa if the same sport is not offered for their gender. So, boys play on field hockey and volleyball teams, girls play on football and wrestling teams. It’s how our Supreme Judicial Court interpreted Title IX. There are some accommodations for gender-related physical differences – boys on a volleyball team can’t spike the ball – and their are complaints that some girls’ teams have an unfair competitive advantage due to boys on the team. There have also been a small, but non-zero, number of injuries to girls due to size and strength differences with male opponents.
So, there is some reason for concern. That said, there are about 100,000 girls playing school sports in MA, and about 200 boys playing on girls’ teams. In contrast, in the 2024-2025 school year, about 4,000 girls played on boy’s football teams nationwide. For some reason, football seems to be the gender-neutral sport at a national level. But nobody is worried about girls getting hurt playing tackle football with boys. Go figure.
I don’t think there is an answer that fits all cases. When Jess Watters interrogated Abdul El-Sayed about this question, El-Sayed replied that the question of who should play on what sports teams should be decided by whoever is governing sports. Which makes the most sense of any answer I’ve heard.
hairshirthedonist
4 hours ago
Darn. And here I thought my preemptive strike at the sins of the right would be at least somewhat effective.
Apologies. It was a highly reflexive response.
On another note:
I don’t know how I could have wrestled a girl (while going through puberty!) without it becoming embarrassing, especially considering the revealing nature of a singlet. I’d have to forfeit. Getting through a slow dance was bad enough! Sheesh…
cleek
3 hours ago
on one hand, denying people the ability to live their lives.
on the other hand, rare instances of potential unfairness in girls’ high-school sports.
such a dilemma.
Last edited 3 hours ago by cleek
Hartmut
1 hour ago
Well, it’s progress that they do not condemn girls doing sports per se anymore (or them going to high school to begin with). [/s]
nooneithinkisinmytree
36 minutes ago
I remember wrestling the neighborhood girls (they were pretty good at it) and boys on the lawn in late grade school and then one day (in early puberty, I guess) I wrestled a couple of them, and it was oddly, mysteriously pleasurable instead of, ya know, competitive.
I wanted them to pin me for some reason.
I decided to stop because it scared me.
Until college.
nooneithinkisinmytree
32 minutes ago
This is why the peasantry in France, long ago, decided to take up beheading as an intramural coed sport.
Still no gunfire among the heavily armed Texans over this stuff. I guess they don’t need the guns and ammo so they won’t mind when we take it from them.
Wow. Beams, motes, all the things.
Darn. And here I thought my preemptive strike at the sins of the right would be at least somewhat effective. What does one have to do to not have Tu quoque pop up?
I think that’s exactly correct. Although you phrase it better than my past efforts to articulate it, so I may steal it.
In addition to not ready and not interested, I think I’d add something like “interested in things that, in their immediate environment, are considered exclusive to the other gender.” Especially in the more
conservativereactionary parts of our society, I suspect (having also not done the research) that happens quite a bit. Sometimes the kids eventually skedaddle to somewhere that they can pursue their interest. But others may have absorbed the gender norms of their home, and conclude that they need to alter themselves rather than their location/environment.Noted. My apologies for characterizing them as straw men.
My own view is that the DSA is having a moment. I don’t mean that in a dismissive way, I just mean that their positions are getting attention right now, not least because people increasingly feel like they are being screwed by our current political and economic climate.
There are at most a handful of people running for or holding office that associate themselves with the DSA. AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Mamdani are notable examples. The three I’ve mentioned have endorsed defunding the police. AOC and Mamdani have moved away from that position, I’m not sure where Tlaib stands now. Basically, when faced with the need to actually govern, AOC and Mamdani at least have “dialed back” their more extreme statements to positions that make more sense in the real world.
It’s also worth noting that the folks I’ve mentioned here represent places with large populations of people who suffer most from the issues the DSA is most vocal about. Law enforcement and incarceration, access to health care and affordable housing, racism, environmental harms. The DSA platform seems extreme and outrageous to a lot of people, but the conditions under which a lot of people live are equally dire. If your job is representing those people, if you are their advocate, you need to address all of that. The DSA positions are more or less the outer left boundary of American political discourse, but they raise issues that most folks would prefer to ignore.
I’ll also say that I personally am more than fine with a lot of the DSA platform. Many or even most of the specific proposals are unrealistic, and are unlikely to ever be implemented, see also the walk back from “woke 1” that so many folks are now doing. But the problems they raise are real and deserve attention and action.
Regarding transgender folks, in my opinion the problem starts with thinking of it as some kind of illness or dysfunction, i.e. “gender dysphoria” or “gender confusion”. Folks I know who are transgender are generally not confused – they are very clear about how they see themselves. The problem they face is trying to find a way to fit into a society that generally views them as weirdos and freaks.
Some people feel themselves to be a different gender than what their genitalia would indicate. I don’t know why, I don’t think anyone knows why. There have always been people like that. Some cultures recognize it and value it, some don’t. Ours generally doesn’t.
And all of that is a different thing than the phenomenon of young people considering themselves non-binary or queer. I generally agree with cleek, that a lot of kids and young adults simply “don’t want to be told what to be”. They want the space and time to figure it all out for themselves. Which is, IMO, understandable in the highly sexualized and porn-ridden world they are coming up in.
I understand the concern about protected spaces for women, but to be honest I think there is a lot of fear-mongering there. There really is no epidemic of transgender people assaulting women in bathrooms. Sports is a different issue, especially from puberty on, I’m not sure what the right thing is to do there, or if there is a one-size-fits-all answer.
Oddly enough, in Massachusetts schools boys can play on girls’ teams and vice versa if the same sport is not offered for their gender. So, boys play on field hockey and volleyball teams, girls play on football and wrestling teams. It’s how our Supreme Judicial Court interpreted Title IX. There are some accommodations for gender-related physical differences – boys on a volleyball team can’t spike the ball – and their are complaints that some girls’ teams have an unfair competitive advantage due to boys on the team. There have also been a small, but non-zero, number of injuries to girls due to size and strength differences with male opponents.
So, there is some reason for concern. That said, there are about 100,000 girls playing school sports in MA, and about 200 boys playing on girls’ teams. In contrast, in the 2024-2025 school year, about 4,000 girls played on boy’s football teams nationwide. For some reason, football seems to be the gender-neutral sport at a national level. But nobody is worried about girls getting hurt playing tackle football with boys. Go figure.
I don’t think there is an answer that fits all cases. When Jess Watters interrogated Abdul El-Sayed about this question, El-Sayed replied that the question of who should play on what sports teams should be decided by whoever is governing sports. Which makes the most sense of any answer I’ve heard.
Apologies. It was a highly reflexive response.
On another note:
I don’t know how I could have wrestled a girl (while going through puberty!) without it becoming embarrassing, especially considering the revealing nature of a singlet. I’d have to forfeit. Getting through a slow dance was bad enough! Sheesh…
on one hand, denying people the ability to live their lives.
on the other hand, rare instances of potential unfairness in girls’ high-school sports.
such a dilemma.
Well, it’s progress that they do not condemn girls doing sports per se anymore (or them going to high school to begin with). [/s]
I remember wrestling the neighborhood girls (they were pretty good at it) and boys on the lawn in late grade school and then one day (in early puberty, I guess) I wrestled a couple of them, and it was oddly, mysteriously pleasurable instead of, ya know, competitive.
I wanted them to pin me for some reason.
I decided to stop because it scared me.
Until college.
This is why the peasantry in France, long ago, decided to take up beheading as an intramural coed sport.
https://www.texasmonthly.com/news-politics/kelcy-warren-transmission-line/?utm_source=texasmonthly&utm_medium=email&user_email_address=0f578fa902fe4e679380e69ec60298d68c579ec8611b5586ea1a8307d7ba70d3&utm_campaign=TMNL%20Texas%20Weekly%2010-30-26&utm_term=Texas%20Weekly
Still no gunfire among the heavily armed Texans over this stuff. I guess they don’t need the guns and ammo so they won’t mind when we take it from them.
The question before us is: Which way Western Man?
Team Trump revives notorious white supremacist phrase in political messaging