by liberal japonicus
I’d start off by noting that depending on the way you read the title, you can fit any perspective.
The jumping off point for this is Ezra Klein’s podcast with Helena Rosenblatt, the author of The Lost History of Liberalism. (transcript here)The book is quite interesting and is a general audience book drawn from her academic works, including Thinking with Rousseau : From Machiavelli to Schmitt (co-authored with Paul Schweigert), Rousseau and Geneva: From the First Discourse to The Social Contract and Liberal Values: Benjamin Constant and the Politics of Religion. She helps redirect the discussion of liberalism from an Anglocentric view to one related more to Europe. This New York Review of Books piece by David Bell is nice if you don’t have time to read the original, in that he juxtaposes 3 books which echo the same theme. (And I’m finding this site to be helpful getting around paywalls)
So I’m all in, I’m a Europhile and get a bit sick of the Anglo-American centric nature of a lot of political discussion (on one podcast, someone observed how US conservatives go to Europe and marvel at the infrastructure and order and wonder why this sort of order doesn’t happen in the states, oblivious to the fact that the people actually pay for that shit in the form of taxes)
And I’ll try to not make this bash Ezra episode #infinity, but reading Rosenblatt, it’s pretty clear that she is a historian, but towards the end, Klein directly challenges the moral track record of liberalism and suggests that its core philosophy has been deeply intertwined with some of society’s historic and modern problems.
That’s a very glittering answer, but I think a critic of liberalism would say: What good is your liberalism if it can include slavery in its founding constitution? Or in the European case: What good is your liberalism if it is so interwoven with colonialism? There were many people who certainly believed in many liberal ideas we’re talking about here, who made space for both of those practices within their liberalism.
How typical of Klein to haul a historian on to his podcast and have her answer for the things she is trying to describe. ‘In your book about Genghis Khan, why didn’t you denounce him more strongly? Don’t you think he was evil incarnate?’ Christ on a crutch.
In another section, Klein opines:
Another crisis is that individualism has gone very far. And I think the internet and social media and algorithmic media and the fracturing of what we know — and our bonds from each other — and the weakening of civic institutions and religions and labor unions… There is a crisis of individualism that has become, partially, a crisis of meaning. … [Liberalism] also has left it with very little language in which to talk about something that is not just individualism.
Yes, liberalism, totally separate from our capitalist culture and consumerism, neoliberalism and commodification, is all to blame. If liberalism were all that people said it was, why does it let that shit happen?
Rosenblatt doesn’t seem to be prepared for this, but my answer would be that liberalism, like the scientific method, has built in to it a mechanism to question itself. Liberalism arose in a time of slavery and colonialism, patriarchalism and nationalism, yet it has provided. and continues to provide us with the tools to attack those problems. Like the scientific method, the people who are against it simply ape it (yes, I did my own research) to try and generate a conclusion that satisfies their own prejudices.
Steel man that, Klein.
Bobbyp, I am looking at your response to me and I don’t have the faintest notion what you are arguing about or how it connects to what I said. I read your link and yeah, absolutely nothing to do with me.
I read LGM fairly often, find most of the pieces interesting, love the LOTR discussion, but despise some of their attitudes on some subjects— in particular, Scott L and his hissy fits about the phrase “ Genocide Joe” and related things.
Cleek, do you have any contempt left over for the Biden Administration or voters who favored arming Israel or do you only despise people who were desperate and irrational because Biden’s bombs were killing their families?
These people in Michigan were watching the Democratic Administration supply the bombs that were killing their relatives and the Party didn’t even let a Palestinian- American speak at the convention.
On Twitter I saw a tape of protestors outside the convention reading out the names and ages of Palestinian children killed by the war. The delegates came out ignoring them or covering their ears, but two of them were laughing and mocking the protests, repeating the name and age of one child and then screeching in laughter.
But sure, there is only one faction worth despising.
As I said earlier, it seems the Democratic voting base and some ( not enough but some) Democratic politicians are against arming Israel. I think it is the terminally online types who have convinced themselves that kicking people whose friends and relatives have been murdered is the appropriate response.
If Imaginary Piker win the nomination then ran on a pro- arming Hamas platform, I would expect decent people to focus on pressuring him to change. Just as decent people tried to change the Biden- Harris policy.
Gftnc— Thank you very much, but I will mostly lurk. I agree with virtually everyone here about Trump, one of the most worthless human beings to ever live. But I have nothing new to add to what everyone knows.
I can’t speak for cleek, of course. But I didn’t read his comments as despising “people who were desperate and irrational because Biden’s bombs were killing their families.” His contempt was for those who chose to support instead someone (Trump) who had already made it abundantly clear that his only disagreement with Biden’s actions was that Biden was too hard on Israel and not hard (read viscous) enough towards the Palestinians. No matter how desperate you are, supporting someone who is loud and proud about wanting to hurt you worse is beyond irrational.
I must say, I too did not think cleek was displaying contempt, or whatever the noun is from “despising”. I thought he was displaying his impotent rage at how people had been so deceived, despite their avowed values, that they could ignore the evidence of their own eyes and blindly follow a lying, murderous charlatan.
GftNC – I must say, I too did not think cleek was displaying contempt, or whatever the noun is from “despising”.
Well, there’s “despication,” but the OED says that one is rare and obsolete, and the single historical example in print that they list for it is from 1837.
Thanks nous. And also for the AI stuff on the other thread.
Speaking as a liberal, I thought this was rather inspiring:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2026/may/24/bruce-springsteen-trump-resistance