Your Odyssey thread

by liberal japonicus

Apologies for the radio silence, been watching lots of discussion about Christopher Nolan’s Odyssey. I limit myself to full length youtube videos, and I avoid shorts like the plague, but here is your invitation to post anything related that you think might be interesting.

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56 Comments
wjca
wjca
11 days ago

Musk has been a US citizen since 2002.

It should probably be mentioned that, early on, Musk overstayed his visa. Which is to say, he was an illegal immigrant.

Under MAGAt orthodoxy, he should be rounded up and deported (without due process) to somewhere like South Sudan. Without, mind, the opportunity to take any possessions with him, beyond the clothes on his back.

GftNC
GftNC
11 days ago

this person, who has benefited enormously from Nolan’s film

I must say, this phrase in Joyce Carol Oates’s denunciation of Emily Wilson is pretty mind-blowing. Even though it echoes my earlier comment about Nolan fans angry about Wilson “biting the hand that feeds her”, I find it an extraordinary remark from such a source when referring to a gifted scholar (from a family, FWIW, numbering at least two previous generations of renowned scholars). Does she think that Wilson should not give her views about the depiction of a work which has obsessed her since childhood? Because (presumably by this she means economically) she has “benefitted enormously from Nolan’s film”? Good grief.

nous
nous
11 days ago

GftNC – agreed. Oates is feeding the hand that bites.

hairshirthedonist
hairshirthedonist
11 days ago

Where that inspiration leads, however, is a complex and personal process. This is especially true when the textual inspiration crosses into new genres and media. All those new conventions, affordances, and contexts create new questions, choices, and rhetorical situations. Changing medium and genre constrains what the new text can mean, which is always transformational.

It’s funny. I think this is more or less what I was thinking, though I probably would have expressed it as something like, “It’s a f**king IMAX movie! What do you expect?”

nous
nous
11 days ago

It’s funny. I think this is more or less what I was thinking, though I probably would have expressed it as something like, “It’s a f**king IMAX movie! What do you expect?”

Legit.

nous
nous
11 days ago

I think in Wilson’s case it is less a sense of “ownership” than it is one of “guardianship.” I don’t think she treats the text as her own (propre – property) so much as she sees herself as having the text partially in her trust. She has, after all, given though to every single word of the original, and I would not doubt that she feels as if that gives her deeper insight into, and engagement with, the poem than what Nolan (or Oates) has. She is a gnostic initiate into the mysteries of the poem, where Nolan is merely inspired by its narrative.

She’s not saying Nolan’s film is illegitimate, just that it lacks a deep understanding of the deeper meanings of the original text, and has added new concerns that were not present in the original. (Recognizing here that “original” is a fraught term for a folk epic.)

It’s not so much a matter of ownership, as of authority and authenticity. Not how much the text belongs to you so much as how much you belong to the text.

nous
nous
11 days ago

Which is to say, I don’t think Wilson is being a gatekeeper in the way that MAGA absolutely is engaged in a project of gatekeeping.

nous
nous
10 days ago

What is Musk if not a gatekeeper?

In A Pedagogy for Liberation (one of my go-to books for pedagogical inspiration, Ira Shor and Paulo Freire talk about the role of the teacher in the liberating classroom (opposed to the transfer classroom which indoctrinates students into the existing power structure). They agree that the role of the teacher is to model intellectual rigor to students – giving students license to question while asking their own questions to illuminate the parts of the students’ questions that they have not considered deeply enough. That strikes me as being akin to what Wilson is doing with her interventions in the public discourse.

Musk, meanwhile, is engaged in a reactionary project meant to indoctrinate his followers into his preferred vision of society. He’s a propagandist pretending to be a brave intellectual rebel.

nous
nous
10 days ago

WRT Achilles vs Odysseus, I think the foxhole framing is a bit reductive. The two heroes are not grunts, they are generals, albeit generals who engage in active combat.

So another question to ask here is whose orders you would trust more to properly value the lives of his men?

The answer to the latter question is a lot more, yes, “complicated.”

Hartmut
Hartmut
10 days ago

I seem to have lost the link to the old Obsidian Wings archives.
Could someone please repost it (and maybe put it also on the front page where currently only the new archives are linked.

GftNC
GftNC
10 days ago

I’m sure that Elon would claim he is merely ‘guarding’ Western civilization.

My view is that we are entitled to evaluate people’s claims according to the veracity of their claims in the past, and to a lesser extent what their likely motivation seems to be based on their past statements.

nous
nous
10 days ago

Hartmut – Try the “About our mascot” link at the top.

russell
russell
10 days ago

“At some point in the future I dearly hope we all have some kind of “perception reset” and treat him like a 21st-century Henry Ford.”

I figure Musk to be the 21st century’s Howard Hughes. Which does not bode well for him, long term.

Last edited 10 days ago by Russell Lane
Hartmut
Hartmut
10 days ago

Thank you

GftNC
GftNC
9 days ago

Despite my admiration for what I understand so far that Emily Wilson has done with her translation, I do believe there is a meta-issue here regarding what Nolan seems to have achieved with his film – which is, after all, an entirely different art form. I have not yet read the translation nor seen the film, but I am very struck by this Ezra Klein piece in today’s NYT. Given the huge popularity of the film, if he’s right its underlying message may turn out to herald a small but significant deviation in the current direction of our culture.

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/08/02/opinion/christopher-nolan-odyssey-elon-musk.html?unlocked_article_code=1.2VA.MyYC.ioRu0gHOStGQ&smid=url-share

Snarki, child of Loki
Snarki, child of Loki
9 days ago

Haven’t seen the movie; last read the book (no idea what translation) over 50 years ago, but regarding the “difference in art form”: it is MUCH harder in a movie to reveal a character’s “inner dialog”.

Doable for live theater to an extent. But movies are a “show, not say” medium.

nous
nous
8 days ago

Klein is onto a productive line of thinking, and he does get at a big part of what Nolan is doing, but he only gets to a sort of halfway house for the full set of connections.

Nolan is not sneaking the Golden Rule and Judeo-Christian critiques in as a trickster. It’s not subterfuge that underlies that move, it’s more of a judo move. Wilson’s translation has a section in yhe intro where she discusses Xenia (Zeus’s law of hospitality). It’s not Judeo-Christian, it’s older than that in what the right has branded as Western Civilization.

Klein reads the film as a critique of the current US policy, but I think Nolan is thinking more of Britain and of the “small boats” seeking a welcome on civil shores. It’s a critique of colonialism moreso than of American imperialism, but Klein is still relevant because, like Xenia and the Golden Rule, those values rhyme.

I understand Wilson’s stance, wanting to make a case for the version of Odysseus’ character shown in the poem. I feel that urge myself when I see the hash that Klein makes of Loki and tricksters in his essay. He’s not on solid scholarly footing with his analysis. He lacks expertise, and is only operating on the level of a middlebrow audience.

But I fully recognize that the cultural struggle for shared value is mostly fought out in the ground covered by the popular press, and that we cannot fight good stories with facts and nuances. I’m not upset with what Klein is saying, I just wish his cup weren’t so full, and that he could stretch his understanding beyond his own limited experience.

I applaud and support Nolan in his smart critique of the wrongness of illiberal Western Chauvinism as defense of Western Civilization, and I applaud Wilson for having likely given Nolan the central value of his film in her front matter. It was a win for them both, and there is no need to try and force a conflict there where there is only a difference in choice over what to emphasize.

GftNC
GftNC
8 days ago

Klein: This “Odyssey” ostensibly hinges on Zeus’ law: Treat the beggar and the stranger as you would want to be treated. But as a horde of classicists have pointed out, that is not the law of Zeus, which is narrower
…..

Nolan has smuggled the core of Judeo-Christian ethics into “The Odyssey.”

nous: Wilson’s translation has a section in yhe intro where she discusses Xenia (Zeus’s law of hospitality). It’s not Judeo-Christian, it’s older than that in what the right has branded as Western Civilization.

Surely that is what Klein is saying? Only he says it is narrower, but neglects (understandably, surely?) to say it is older.

I think Nolan is thinking more of Britain and of the “small boats” seeking a welcome on civil shores.

I think he is talking about the whole phenomenon of not seeing foreigners, or the people seeking sanctuary/escape as human, or worthy of care and help: the small boats, colonialism, ICE, the Haitian immigrants, the Southern border.

And where Musk is concerned, his racism shows not only in his Lupita Nyong’o objections, but in his blithe denial that millions of third world children and adults are dying or going to die as a result of his DOGE adventure.

In which connection, I particularly liked Klein’s neat comment:

Elon Musk did not understand what this movie was. But this movie understands what Musk is.

nous
nous
8 days ago

nous, Klein refers to Lewis Hyde’s book, Trickster makes this world, and I’m wondering if you have read it.

I have not, though I did go to the publisher’s website and skimmed the excerpt they provide. I can see why it appealed to people like Atwood and Foster Wallace. It’s pithy and has a swing to it. It cites many examples, but it was touching on themes and didn’t spend much time trying to contextualize the stories. Maybe he does that later? I don’t know. What I read, though, doesn’t lead me to want to spend more time with his thoughts on the subject. I’d prefer something less wide ranging and associative and more grounded in the specifics of time and place.

Clearly Atwood disagrees with me, though, and Kirkus, so I’m probably not going to get many book club invites.

Last edited 8 days ago by nous
cleek
cleek
8 days ago

i usually don’t read reviews, but this stuff has been inescapable.

and what i’ve learned is that there is no way i will be able to enjoy this movie because everything it does is wrong for some reason and i should probably feel bad about even wanting to give Nolan any money.

which is why i usually don’t read reviews.