I'm a 13-year-old shiba inu raised by a murder of crows...
LOL
I'm a 68 year old American geezer raised on duck and cover, Kennedy assassinations, Vietnam, Nixon and CREEP, J Edgar, MLK Jr and his assassination, race riots and cities on fire.
Early adulthood was Reagan and AIDs. We gave up on duck and cover somewhere in there and were basically just crossing our fingers.
Middle age was W Bush, 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq, Abu Ghraib, and waterboarding for fun and profit.
And, here we are now.
What a long strange trip it's been.
Supposedly seeing things on TV helped turn people against Vietnam.
True this. But, it was a different time.
There were three national broadcast TV networks, many if not most people got there news from those or newspapers. Or both. So there was a common set of news sources for most of the country, and those sources generally provided the same basic set of information, although with a somewhat different slant.
The cliche is that everybody trusted Walter Cronkite (CBS, through 1981) and Chet Huntley and David Brinkley (NBC, through 1970). They didn't necessarily agree with everything they said, but they were seen as basically truthful, reliable voices.
And, the cliche continues, when Cronkite in particular began questioning the war, that was the tipping point.
Vietnam was also (I think) the first war where there was a lot of video coverage, and it was timely, i.e., you would see things fairly soon after they happened. The photomagazines like Like also provided a lot of coverage.
Net/net, most people got their news from the same places, and those places were trusted, and they were all fairly consistent in the information they presented.
I don't think any of that is true now.
Re: Gaza in particular - I read a couple of foreign news sources - the Guardian, the BBC, Reuters, El Pais, Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera has a *lot* of coverage of Gaza, but I don't think very many people read it. It's based in Qatar, no small number of USians would probably not read it for that reason alone.
On the US side, I read the AP, which has a fairly "just the facts" stance (I think?), but they don't have the same level of coverage of Gaza as others do.
And I think everybody has basically forgotten about the Ukraine at this point.
I read Krugman on substack, but that's about it. I signed up for a bluesky account but basically never read it.
Don't do TikTok or similar.
News and information is a remarkably fragmented and siloed universe these days.
I wish there still was something with the ubiquity and trust level of the old 6 o'clock news guys, I think it would help make some of horror shows going on now more widely visible.
But they're more or less gone.
I'm a 13-year-old shiba inu raised by a murder of crows that were terrorized by some dude in a George W. Bush mask. If you know that, then the rest of my politics comes into focus.
I was wondering about Charles’s age range myself. I think I have given away my approx age once or twice.
Thanks, Gftnc. But the tone thing sort of makes my eyes roll a bit. People should get a Twitter account, ignore the crap ( I have no idea what “the algorithm” wants me to see most of the time— I know about some people and they interact with others) and read Palestinians first hand. Some over there, some here. You will get tone, all right. Some Western lefties, some antizionist Israeli and American Jews. And plenty of pro Israel people respond, I am a cuddly little teddy bear in comparison to most of that crowd. I mean the substantive ones— there are of course plenty of people who only cuss out the side they are against, but you see plenty of bigotry on both sides with those folk, so even with them you get to see what sort of sewage is out there.
Supposedly seeing things on TV helped turn people against Vietnam. I think you see vastly more on Twitter. I almost never see anything on TikTok, which is supposed to be a site that helped turn young people against Israel in Gaza.
I probably need a break.
More on ranting. I visit LGM fairly often and that entire blog is one long almost continuous rant session, but they have their own culture there and while I think I get the unwritten rules and one or two of the inside jokes, they are a different type of ranter. I wouldn’t fit. It involves how and in what manner you are supposed to criticize the Democrats. The focus is on politics along with policy but mostly how it fits with politics. Nowadays they really hate the feckless Democratic leadership. I learn things from reading them.
You know who we lack here? Palestinian- American posters
You do a pretty damn good job of linking important stuff about the Palestinian situation which most of us would not otherwise see, Donald. In the previous discussion about ranters v persuaders, I think you are a ranter par excellence. And I mean that as a compliment. It's not always comfortable, and I don't always agree with you, but you are morally consistent and IMO a kind of conscience in the blog.
Most everyone here at one time or another has either implicitly or explicitly revealed their age or birthdate. Odds are that anyone who hasn't is within the range.
Though of course with Trump in office we have a purely random foreign policy. based on whims. Best hope for Gaza would be if Netanyahu ticks off Trump in some way,
“ often find Donald's comments more annoying than wj's.”
Interesting. You mostly seem to agree on the war crimes thing, which is most of what I post about when ranting. In fact, that is virtually all of my rants as best I can recall.
“ anyone who agrees, but thinks there are other, more achievable, priorities is at best an utter moral dullard.”
That’s about right. Not supporting genocide is pretty low bar stuff.. You know who we lack here? Palestinian- American posters.
The pie in the sky material is in domestic policy and just keeping Trump from destroying what we have is sort of the best we can hope for.
I like Mamdani for example, but if he wins will be amazed if he can get a fraction of what he wants for nyc.
This has me reminscing, mostly fondly, about Brick Oven Bill and the alien space bats guy. I don't think either of them were banned, I think they both just moved on to greener pastures...
Anyway, if there are any conservative lurkers out there who are pondering participating but are afraid it's just too lefty in here for them, please consider this your invitation to jump in. We will do our best not to jump all over you! At least not right away... :)
What CaseyL said. To me, it's just not worth the bother anymore.
But let's also remember that the good old days were those of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
I'm perfectly happy to haggle with wj on occasion, though :)
Snarki, you must have been away. He was banned straight after 10/7, when he barrelled onto here and accused us (or maybe even specific people) of thinking that the murdered Israelis and their babies had it coming. It was a perfect example of his straw-manning, and his tiresome habit of treating us as if we were the Politburo or the People's Congress, or some other lefty bogeyman. But I must say, when he wasn't doing that kind of thing, his presence often stimulated a lot of interesting conversation over here, as contentious subjects often do, or did. I fear russell may be right, and that these days things are too polarised for that. It's a shame.
Again, Snarki: I completely agree about what causes you incandescent rage - me too.
CaseyL: I did resubscribe to the Atlantic when I cancelled my sub to the WaPo, but I hardly ever read any of it (apart from non-mad David Frum) so may let it go again. I would never have thought that the coiner of "axis of evil" would end up being counted a reasonable voice.
Donald: we are a pretty narrow group ideologically most of the time. Wj is the token conservative and he is more centrist really.
I'd go with moderate conservative on most issues. I think that the "centerist" perception is mostly because the label "conservative" has been (successfully, to the point that liberals believe it) hijacked by the radical right and reactionaries. I am old enough to actually remember the 1950s and early 60s. For me, it was a wonderful, idyllic time. But then, I was a white kid in a small town California setting. There are some bits of that culture that I wish we hadn't lost, but I have no desire to go back to the 1950s culture overall, even that one.
Not that, here in the real world, it's possible to do anything like that. Hmmmm, an argument for rapidly developing virtually reality systems -- so the Steven Millers can sit in their parents' basement, muck up their private world, and leave the rest of us in peace.
russell: I'm sorry to say but I'm not sure it's possible to have the kind of mixture of voices that were once available. Not because anyone has any intention of excluding anybody for their point of view, but because things have become so polarized. Real harm has been, and is being, done, and people's feelings run high.
I think the challenges are twofold. The first is: how do we find those centerist/conservative voices? Does anyone here know how to do recruiting? Second is: if someone like that stumbles across us, can we refrain from assuming that someone who says she's a conservative is some sort of rabid reactionary? I note that a new chum arriving could read some comments here** and feel unwelcome before she ever moved from lurker to commenter. As you say, feelings run high on a variety of issues. I've certainly been moved to rant occasionally. ;-)
So I'd say that increasing our diversity of views is definitely a "nice to have." But I'm not sure how we might get from here to there.
**Donald leaps to mind. Not because he's wrong about how outrageous some things are. It's possible to be pretty damn conservative and agree completely on that. It's more a matter, as far as I can explain it, of tone. And an assumption (again as I perceive it) that anyone who agrees, but thinks there are other, more achievable, priorities is at best an utter moral dullard.
I actually miss most of the commenters who have been banned during my roughly 2 decades here. Does anybody have the full list?
Like the poor sod in the Monty Python sketch, I come here for an argument. Maybe I'm too emotionally inert, but I can't remember ever feeling hurt by a blog comment to or about me. Annoyed, sure, but annoyance tends to inspire me to argue back, rather than depress me.
Arguing with pig-headed opponents can be a bore, but what's a better way to waste time? Watching a horror movie? Listening to a sermon? Tastes differ, of course, and everyone is free to choose their own favorite time-wasting activity. For me, that was Obsidian Wings, once upon a time. I hope it becomes that again, someday.
--TP
I am a woman, and a Boomer.
I used to spend some time seeking out conservatives sites and voices, hoping for rational conversations about policy ends and means, but then they reached the logical end of modern US conservativism and went nuts.
I mean, this isn't me saying "Conservative thought is nuts" just because I'm liberal.
This is me saying "Conservative thought is nuts because it actively celebrates things that conservatives once swore they were opposed to, purely because their media leaders have told them to"... or, I dunno, just because they own the US government now and they can do whatever they want...?
And what they want is neo-feudalism, with concentration camps...?
I still drop in at Volokh Conspiracy once in a while, but the lunacy is in full swing with most of their FPers... and the comment sections are cesspools.
I could re-subscribe to The Atlantic, where some non-rabid conservatives have found a home, but they don't represent any actual political movement - and not enough of an opposition to their Party's current manifestation - so I'm not sure what the value is.
I really do appreciate the "somewhat right-wing" contingent here: (wj, Marty, CharlesWT). In fact, I often find Donald's comments more annoying than wj's. Go figure.
When was it that McTx was banned? I don't remember that? But I do recall the most annoying features of McTx's style of argumentation: claiming authoritative knowledge of everything, and imputing opinions to others, mostly in the context of strawmanning.
If there is ONE thing that drives me to an incandescent rage, it's someone trying to tell me what my opinions/desires/thoughts/experiences are. That's all stuff that one owns more profoundly than any property, being the stuff inside your own brain.
F*** it, I'll just write it again. It'll likely be less ramble-y.
It's true, we used to have a wider variety of voices. Over time, we've kind of sorted ourselves into a liberal-to-left boomer-and-genx niche.
It's actually really hard to be a contrarian voice on a blog (or anywhere). People yell at you a lot, it takes time and work to build credibility. So I understand why conservatives would shy away.
In McK's case, specifically, he had good things to say, but seemed unable to resist the urge to scold us all for being a bunch of lefty goupthink hypocrites. Which was rude and unwelcome and tiresome. So he got bounced. Came back as BigBadBird, same thing, so he got bounced again.
I'd be happy to see more conservative voices here, but things have become so polarized that I'm not sure it'll happen. Real harm has been, and is being, done, and people's feelings run high. It's a different time.
Regarding the 4th, just not feeling it this year. To be honest, I'm feeling like I'm kind of done with the USA. Not that I'm going anywhere, I've just lost faith that we will ever get past the same tired old bullshit that we began with.
The stupid, sadistic cruelty of what's going on now is just a bridge too far. It's pointless, it's cruelty for it's own sake. If that's not evil, I don't know what is, and I cannot align myself with it, at all, ever.
We're gonna pay for this, and I don't look forward to it.
So that's my 4th of July.
Thought I posted a comment, don't know if it's lost in the intertoobz or if I just did Preview and forgot to hit Post before I refreshed the page.
Stupid computers! :)
Anyway, if it's floating around out there and somebody can find it and repost it, great. Otherwise I'll try again later.
ETA: 12:20 comment released from confinement. -Ed.
On “An open thread on July 4th”
I'm a 13-year-old shiba inu raised by a murder of crows...
LOL
I'm a 68 year old American geezer raised on duck and cover, Kennedy assassinations, Vietnam, Nixon and CREEP, J Edgar, MLK Jr and his assassination, race riots and cities on fire.
Early adulthood was Reagan and AIDs. We gave up on duck and cover somewhere in there and were basically just crossing our fingers.
Middle age was W Bush, 9/11, Afghanistan and Iraq, Abu Ghraib, and waterboarding for fun and profit.
And, here we are now.
What a long strange trip it's been.
"
Supposedly seeing things on TV helped turn people against Vietnam.
True this. But, it was a different time.
There were three national broadcast TV networks, many if not most people got there news from those or newspapers. Or both. So there was a common set of news sources for most of the country, and those sources generally provided the same basic set of information, although with a somewhat different slant.
The cliche is that everybody trusted Walter Cronkite (CBS, through 1981) and Chet Huntley and David Brinkley (NBC, through 1970). They didn't necessarily agree with everything they said, but they were seen as basically truthful, reliable voices.
And, the cliche continues, when Cronkite in particular began questioning the war, that was the tipping point.
Vietnam was also (I think) the first war where there was a lot of video coverage, and it was timely, i.e., you would see things fairly soon after they happened. The photomagazines like Like also provided a lot of coverage.
Net/net, most people got their news from the same places, and those places were trusted, and they were all fairly consistent in the information they presented.
I don't think any of that is true now.
Re: Gaza in particular - I read a couple of foreign news sources - the Guardian, the BBC, Reuters, El Pais, Al Jazeera. Al Jazeera has a *lot* of coverage of Gaza, but I don't think very many people read it. It's based in Qatar, no small number of USians would probably not read it for that reason alone.
On the US side, I read the AP, which has a fairly "just the facts" stance (I think?), but they don't have the same level of coverage of Gaza as others do.
And I think everybody has basically forgotten about the Ukraine at this point.
I read Krugman on substack, but that's about it. I signed up for a bluesky account but basically never read it.
Don't do TikTok or similar.
News and information is a remarkably fragmented and siloed universe these days.
I wish there still was something with the ubiquity and trust level of the old 6 o'clock news guys, I think it would help make some of horror shows going on now more widely visible.
But they're more or less gone.
"
I'm a 13-year-old shiba inu raised by a murder of crows that were terrorized by some dude in a George W. Bush mask. If you know that, then the rest of my politics comes into focus.
"
I was wondering about Charles’s age range myself.
I'm about four months younger than wj and have the same birthday as bobbyp.
"
“ . I almost never see anything on TikTok,”
Meaning that I almost never visit, not that there isn’t material there.
"
I was wondering about Charles’s age range myself. I think I have given away my approx age once or twice.
Thanks, Gftnc. But the tone thing sort of makes my eyes roll a bit. People should get a Twitter account, ignore the crap ( I have no idea what “the algorithm” wants me to see most of the time— I know about some people and they interact with others) and read Palestinians first hand. Some over there, some here. You will get tone, all right. Some Western lefties, some antizionist Israeli and American Jews. And plenty of pro Israel people respond, I am a cuddly little teddy bear in comparison to most of that crowd. I mean the substantive ones— there are of course plenty of people who only cuss out the side they are against, but you see plenty of bigotry on both sides with those folk, so even with them you get to see what sort of sewage is out there.
Supposedly seeing things on TV helped turn people against Vietnam. I think you see vastly more on Twitter. I almost never see anything on TikTok, which is supposed to be a site that helped turn young people against Israel in Gaza.
I probably need a break.
More on ranting. I visit LGM fairly often and that entire blog is one long almost continuous rant session, but they have their own culture there and while I think I get the unwritten rules and one or two of the inside jokes, they are a different type of ranter. I wouldn’t fit. It involves how and in what manner you are supposed to criticize the Democrats. The focus is on politics along with policy but mostly how it fits with politics. Nowadays they really hate the feckless Democratic leadership. I learn things from reading them.
"
A text file. I was mildly curious about the regulars' ages and started noting them as I learned them some years ago.
"
Do you keep a spreadsheet, Charles?
"
You know who we lack here? Palestinian- American posters
You do a pretty damn good job of linking important stuff about the Palestinian situation which most of us would not otherwise see, Donald. In the previous discussion about ranters v persuaders, I think you are a ranter par excellence. And I mean that as a compliment. It's not always comfortable, and I don't always agree with you, but you are morally consistent and IMO a kind of conscience in the blog.
"
Most everyone here at one time or another has either implicitly or explicitly revealed their age or birthdate. Odds are that anyone who hasn't is within the range.
"
Though of course with Trump in office we have a purely random foreign policy. based on whims. Best hope for Gaza would be if Netanyahu ticks off Trump in some way,
"
How did you figure that out again, Charles? Thanks.
"
Of the regular commenters, the age range is 52-78.
That would make me the youngest. Strange feeling.
"
“ often find Donald's comments more annoying than wj's.”
Interesting. You mostly seem to agree on the war crimes thing, which is most of what I post about when ranting. In fact, that is virtually all of my rants as best I can recall.
“ anyone who agrees, but thinks there are other, more achievable, priorities is at best an utter moral dullard.”
That’s about right. Not supporting genocide is pretty low bar stuff.. You know who we lack here? Palestinian- American posters.
The pie in the sky material is in domestic policy and just keeping Trump from destroying what we have is sort of the best we can hope for.
I like Mamdani for example, but if he wins will be amazed if he can get a fraction of what he wants for nyc.
"
This has me reminscing, mostly fondly, about Brick Oven Bill and the alien space bats guy. I don't think either of them were banned, I think they both just moved on to greener pastures...
Anyway, if there are any conservative lurkers out there who are pondering participating but are afraid it's just too lefty in here for them, please consider this your invitation to jump in. We will do our best not to jump all over you! At least not right away... :)
"
What CaseyL said. To me, it's just not worth the bother anymore.
But let's also remember that the good old days were those of the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
I'm perfectly happy to haggle with wj on occasion, though :)
"
Snarki, you must have been away. He was banned straight after 10/7, when he barrelled onto here and accused us (or maybe even specific people) of thinking that the murdered Israelis and their babies had it coming. It was a perfect example of his straw-manning, and his tiresome habit of treating us as if we were the Politburo or the People's Congress, or some other lefty bogeyman. But I must say, when he wasn't doing that kind of thing, his presence often stimulated a lot of interesting conversation over here, as contentious subjects often do, or did. I fear russell may be right, and that these days things are too polarised for that. It's a shame.
Again, Snarki: I completely agree about what causes you incandescent rage - me too.
CaseyL: I did resubscribe to the Atlantic when I cancelled my sub to the WaPo, but I hardly ever read any of it (apart from non-mad David Frum) so may let it go again. I would never have thought that the coiner of "axis of evil" would end up being counted a reasonable voice.
"
Donald: we are a pretty narrow group ideologically most of the time. Wj is the token conservative and he is more centrist really.
I'd go with moderate conservative on most issues. I think that the "centerist" perception is mostly because the label "conservative" has been (successfully, to the point that liberals believe it) hijacked by the radical right and reactionaries. I am old enough to actually remember the 1950s and early 60s. For me, it was a wonderful, idyllic time. But then, I was a white kid in a small town California setting. There are some bits of that culture that I wish we hadn't lost, but I have no desire to go back to the 1950s culture overall, even that one.
Not that, here in the real world, it's possible to do anything like that. Hmmmm, an argument for rapidly developing virtually reality systems -- so the Steven Millers can sit in their parents' basement, muck up their private world, and leave the rest of us in peace.
russell: I'm sorry to say but I'm not sure it's possible to have the kind of mixture of voices that were once available. Not because anyone has any intention of excluding anybody for their point of view, but because things have become so polarized. Real harm has been, and is being, done, and people's feelings run high.
I think the challenges are twofold. The first is: how do we find those centerist/conservative voices? Does anyone here know how to do recruiting? Second is: if someone like that stumbles across us, can we refrain from assuming that someone who says she's a conservative is some sort of rabid reactionary? I note that a new chum arriving could read some comments here** and feel unwelcome before she ever moved from lurker to commenter. As you say, feelings run high on a variety of issues. I've certainly been moved to rant occasionally. ;-)
So I'd say that increasing our diversity of views is definitely a "nice to have." But I'm not sure how we might get from here to there.
**Donald leaps to mind. Not because he's wrong about how outrageous some things are. It's possible to be pretty damn conservative and agree completely on that. It's more a matter, as far as I can explain it, of tone. And an assumption (again as I perceive it) that anyone who agrees, but thinks there are other, more achievable, priorities is at best an utter moral dullard.
"
I still drop in at Volokh Conspiracy once in a while,
Brett Bellmore is a regular commenter there.
"
I actually miss most of the commenters who have been banned during my roughly 2 decades here. Does anybody have the full list?
Like the poor sod in the Monty Python sketch, I come here for an argument. Maybe I'm too emotionally inert, but I can't remember ever feeling hurt by a blog comment to or about me. Annoyed, sure, but annoyance tends to inspire me to argue back, rather than depress me.
Arguing with pig-headed opponents can be a bore, but what's a better way to waste time? Watching a horror movie? Listening to a sermon? Tastes differ, of course, and everyone is free to choose their own favorite time-wasting activity. For me, that was Obsidian Wings, once upon a time. I hope it becomes that again, someday.
--TP
"
I am a woman, and a Boomer.
I used to spend some time seeking out conservatives sites and voices, hoping for rational conversations about policy ends and means, but then they reached the logical end of modern US conservativism and went nuts.
I mean, this isn't me saying "Conservative thought is nuts" just because I'm liberal.
This is me saying "Conservative thought is nuts because it actively celebrates things that conservatives once swore they were opposed to, purely because their media leaders have told them to"... or, I dunno, just because they own the US government now and they can do whatever they want...?
And what they want is neo-feudalism, with concentration camps...?
I still drop in at Volokh Conspiracy once in a while, but the lunacy is in full swing with most of their FPers... and the comment sections are cesspools.
I could re-subscribe to The Atlantic, where some non-rabid conservatives have found a home, but they don't represent any actual political movement - and not enough of an opposition to their Party's current manifestation - so I'm not sure what the value is.
"
I really do appreciate the "somewhat right-wing" contingent here: (wj, Marty, CharlesWT). In fact, I often find Donald's comments more annoying than wj's. Go figure.
When was it that McTx was banned? I don't remember that? But I do recall the most annoying features of McTx's style of argumentation: claiming authoritative knowledge of everything, and imputing opinions to others, mostly in the context of strawmanning.
If there is ONE thing that drives me to an incandescent rage, it's someone trying to tell me what my opinions/desires/thoughts/experiences are. That's all stuff that one owns more profoundly than any property, being the stuff inside your own brain.
"
F*** it, I'll just write it again. It'll likely be less ramble-y.
It's true, we used to have a wider variety of voices. Over time, we've kind of sorted ourselves into a liberal-to-left boomer-and-genx niche.
It's actually really hard to be a contrarian voice on a blog (or anywhere). People yell at you a lot, it takes time and work to build credibility. So I understand why conservatives would shy away.
In McK's case, specifically, he had good things to say, but seemed unable to resist the urge to scold us all for being a bunch of lefty goupthink hypocrites. Which was rude and unwelcome and tiresome. So he got bounced. Came back as BigBadBird, same thing, so he got bounced again.
I'd be happy to see more conservative voices here, but things have become so polarized that I'm not sure it'll happen. Real harm has been, and is being, done, and people's feelings run high. It's a different time.
Regarding the 4th, just not feeling it this year. To be honest, I'm feeling like I'm kind of done with the USA. Not that I'm going anywhere, I've just lost faith that we will ever get past the same tired old bullshit that we began with.
The stupid, sadistic cruelty of what's going on now is just a bridge too far. It's pointless, it's cruelty for it's own sake. If that's not evil, I don't know what is, and I cannot align myself with it, at all, ever.
We're gonna pay for this, and I don't look forward to it.
So that's my 4th of July.
"
Thought I posted a comment, don't know if it's lost in the intertoobz or if I just did Preview and forgot to hit Post before I refreshed the page.
Stupid computers! :)
Anyway, if it's floating around out there and somebody can find it and repost it, great. Otherwise I'll try again later.
ETA: 12:20 comment released from confinement. -Ed.
"
Of the regular commenters, the age range is 52-78.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.