As for LGM.... There is a certain atmosphere there, a way of acting, just as there is here and at every blog I have ever visited for any length of time. You pick up on what opinions are acceptable and which ones will induce a pile on and yes, also the topics where people within the community will rip into each other.
And which opinions are which have changed over time. Several years ago, the first time I said that I expected a peaceful partition of the US, the idea was ridiculed and people piled on. Today, it is perfectly acceptable to say that things are soon to come down to an actual shooting civil war. People are applauded for saying that they are leaving the country to avoid the war.
Granted, I said the cause would be dealing with climate change -- which I still say -- and the people today are talking fighting between the fascist and non-fascist sides. Or between the urban and rural sides. Or between the fundamental Christians and everyone who isn't. Criticism tends to be limited to the fact that those divisions don't correspond well with existing state boundaries.
You didn’t explain what is wrong with taking on Welsh’s bias in this case.
I'm not really sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Welsh's overall bias in that he wants to be right and he wants to tell everyone so. Neither of us knows anything about Hüseyin Doğru, so neither of us can comment intelligently, but if Germany is going too far, stepping back a bit, we can see how it comes about. Germany, given its history, not only the Holocaust, but also Munich, has a lot to overcome and it is understandable that pro Israel bias, along with the forceful campaign to equate any questioning of Israel with anti-semitism makes me wonder about the idea that Germany is simply doing this as a way of repressing voices. Making this out to be simply an argument about what levers government should use misses that whole problematic history. So it's hard to ignore that bias for me. YMMV
I kind of feel that the attitude that Welsh puts out is the same attitude that has someone like a Robert Kennedy or a Tulsi Gabbard effortlessly slide from left to right.
About LGM, I have noted that I avoid the comments and I've also posted about how I feel uncomfortable with Loomis' take no prisoners attitude. I don't know how the other front pagers feel, though when things get really bad in the comments, it does bubble up to the front page. It's pretty remarkable to have the situation where it looks like a front pager is trolling the commentators, but I do think a lot of their issues are not their political position, it is the speed at which conversation goes on over there, and the underlying snarkiness, which tends to magnify a lot of differences. So when you talk about the blog in that aspect, as I think you are when you talk about a 'certain atmosphere', I agree, but when you say "I fall about halfway between him and the LGM lefties" it sounds to me like you are suggesting the bloggers there occupy a point on the political spectrum, which I don't see.
About Epstein, your link says this There are so many explanations and unanswered questions raised by the release, which also says that there is “no credible evidence … that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions.” That means that the theories alleging Epstein was operating some kind of operation to collect incriminating information for a foreign government (most notably the Israelis) has also been dismissed by the U.S. government.
A friend on facebook noted that Ghislaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, was given a state funeral in Israel and that what Epstein did bore all the marks of what an intelligence agency would do to get leverage. Being in that framework, there was another post that zoomed that was someone posting a tweet from someone saying that they lived in an area where there were a lot of Russian émigrés and there was a noticable absence of ICE agents. So I do wonder.
LJ-
You didn’t explain what is wrong with taking on Welsh’s bias in this case. He was opposed to the Canadian government using its power in what he considers an illegitimate way against the truckers, who he does not support. Now he opposes the German government doing something similar to someone he is in sympathy with. He is saying he was right to say that people should oppose this use of government power because it is a form of tyranny that can be used against anyone.
I agree with him. The government shouldn’t use certain levers of power.
“ you need to be careful about taking on their biases.”
That applies to everyone about everything. You and I both have biases..
As for LGM, as a long time reader it has not escaped my notice that there are many posters and even more commenters. There is a certain atmosphere there, a way of acting, just as there is here and at every blog I have ever visited for any length of time. You pick up on what opinions are acceptable and which ones will induce a pile on and yes, also the topics where people within the community will rip into each other. By LGM standards I have all three types of opinions.
Which is all I will say. I limit myself on the number of arguments I am going to get into and this looks like two that I am going to drop.
Here is a third which I came to post about, but have nothing much to say except for what I sat in this paragraph. . Epstein. I have no specific theory about him, but am skeptical of the “ move along, nothing to see here” stance. https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/jeffrey-epstein-had-1000-victims
the lack of visual art and, with a very notable exception, the apparent lack of sites for religious rituals.
I'm not sure this is so. My understanding is that cave art attributable to Neandethals have been found in the Loire and in Spain. The attribution is based on dating the paint used, which apparently (or allegedly) pre-dates homo sapiens' arrival in Europe.
The famous individual buried in Shanidar cave surrounded by pollen is often cited as an example of Neanderthal intentional burial practices, indicating symbolic thought and ritualistic behaviors.
I would push back a bit on lumping LGM all together. I won't do a deep dive into each poster, but it's not really fair to suggest that there is one viewpoint when there are multiple authors.
Welch, on the other hand, is one person, so presumably (unless he has guest posters) his blog represents his view. The question of what kind of financial levers the government should use is an interesting question, and the case of Hüseyin Doğru seems pretty bad, but the problem is not the government using those levers, it is that what is happening is basically piggybacked on possibly the most incendiary question, the I/P one, which has a longer history than two other hot questions, abortion and the issue of trans There are others, the question of how much government is appropriate might be another, what racism is, what sexism is, but those problems have some definitional issues, where it is difficult to draw a line around what evidence should be considered.
Welsh seems more interested in being right than in understanding. He starts off with well, he didn't like the truckers strike, but he was opposed to freezing their accounts. and now, 10 years later, he has been proven correct! So yeah, you can learn a lot from other sources, but you need to be careful about taking on their biases.
Ok,here's the thing with my reluctance to have a bipartisan kumbayah here: I am unwilling to discuss the merits of bombing people to bits and that's what many to the right of me seem to have a rather high tolerance for.
Apart from this I'm actually quite a middle of the road social democrat, it's just that the Overton window seems to have shifted massively during the past 25 years.
I think we could debate the merits of a policy in a civilised way, even if Trump favours it.
What, in my recollection, Marty found no sympathy for was the notion that voting for Trump might be a defensible action. Since Marty now hopes for, rather than expects, democratic elections, it seems that the rest of us were right in saying that it was not.
I was just teaching my son who just discovered music about playing on top of the beat vs. behind, etc.
The force is strong with this one!!! An advanced topic for a youngster - does your son play an instrument, or is he just listening? Not a complaint, but in reality this just isn't possible.
You could be right.
:(
"Conservative lurkers, c'mon in! Just don't be jerks. We'll try not to be, too"
Not a complaint, but in reality this just isn't possible. The subjects are too polarized, it's too easy to lose perspective. Both sides. It is the nature of the Trump age,anyone conservative agrees with enough of his policies to be branded with both his policies and his psychopathy.
The hatred for those is so understandable as to make defending the smaller pieces not worthwhile.
I am just hoping we get to have midterm elections.
TP: Thanks, and back at you.
russell: a day or two late and therefore considerably out of the pocket so to speak, but I’ve appreciated your insights into Ringo (there was a past conversation I recall). I was just teaching my son who just discovered music about playing on top of the beat vs. behind, etc. He listened because it was on one of “his” songs and he really liked the song and didn’t know why that particular part had such good energy.
I’m listening to “Love” for the first time (came with a bunch of CD’s from an estate sale) on my “new” high-end vintage CD player on a good system. I know it’s probably sacrilegious but I rather like the mix.
“ bookmarked Ian Welch's blog some years ago, but rarely visit. He is not my kind of lefty. He makes my head hurt.”
I fall about halfway between him and the LGM lefties. They both irritate me in different ways. But you learn things from reading all sorts.
On the issue, I don’t think he is saying that we should exist in a strictly cash economy and if he did say that this would be dumb. But I think he is pointing to a new way for governments to crack down on dissent. Not that he is the first by any means.
Just to be clear, my point wasn't about using cryptocurrency, it was about the fact that a government has to control transactions for a number of reasons that are necessary and working with my student about how the EU is looking at controlling cryptocurrency suggests you are going to have the ways to control that will end up like Chekhov's gun.
I don't think it is realistic to expect nations to simply stay with cash money.
These days the vast majority of currency transactions are electronic. I doubt anyone (outside the looney far right, and not most even there) expect or want that to change. Cash (paper) can be handy for small transactions. But nobody uses it much for legal transactions over $100.
But crypto is a whole different deal. It's great for illegal transactions, or for evading taxes. And, if you get in early, it's an effective "bigger idiot" vehicle. But legitimate uses? No so much.
It may be possible to regulate it to the point that it's useful. But I haven't seen any even halfway plausible ideas for doing so.
I hadn't seen or didn't remember Ian Welch. The information about Hüseyin Doğru (love the diacritics!) is interesting, but I'm working online with a masters student who is researching how cryptocurrency legislation should be handled and Welch is not really thinking why the German government can do what it can. Like Donald, I don't know anything about the case, but I don't think it is realistic to expect nations to simply stay with cash money. One thing I like about Japan is that it is much more a cash economy than what Germany sounds like, but it's not clear to me if he wants Germany to be more like Japan, which I guess he imagines would clear up the problem, or wants the Government to put some guardrails because that will deal with the problem? It's not really clear.
Here's a website where Hüseyin Doğru is discussing it https://diem25.org/en/author/huseyin-dogru/
But I can't get the page to load.
Donald, I should say I know nothing of Hüseyin Doğru— never heard of him before.
Wasn't he Kim Jong Il's caddy when he shot 36 under par in one round of golf?
Juche!
I bookmarked Ian Welch's blog some years ago, but rarely visit. He is not my kind of lefty. He makes my head hurt.
bc: Lastly, in order to attract conservatives, IMHO, you have to at least want to hear another point of view.
Good to see you again, bc!
Put me down as definitely wanting to hear "another point of view" on any topic at all. Also put me down as willing to challenge any point of view -- time permitting, and if I feel like it.
Is it possible that, unlike you, some conservatives find it frustrating to be challenged when they set forth their "point of view" on ObWi? I mean, "hearing" and "accepting" are different things. Any posted comment is "heard" in a literal(-ish) sense. If it elicits no response, would that be less, or more, frustrating than a bunch of replies "refuting" it?
Hoping you pop up more often, and bring friends with you:)
--TP
Richards and Willie Nelson seem to have inherited the mantle of the Betty White jokes. "Shouldn't someone be worrying about the kind of world our kids will leave for Keith and Willie?"
From back when HP made quality stuff, not just crappy printers.
Sometime while I was in graduate school (Texas, 1976-78) I went to one of HP's sales pitches for their engineering calculators. At one point the salesman asked if there were any petroleum engineering students in the crowd and got several hands up. "You, my friends, will someday soon be walking along a catwalk and drop your calculator, watch it bounce twice, go over the edge, and fall 20 feet to the ground. What will you have if that's a Texas Instruments calculator? Pieces." Then he wound up and throw the HP calculator hard enough to bounce it off the back wall. "With an HP, you'll just yell down and ask your buddy to pick up your calculator."
On “An open thread on July 4th”
As for LGM.... There is a certain atmosphere there, a way of acting, just as there is here and at every blog I have ever visited for any length of time. You pick up on what opinions are acceptable and which ones will induce a pile on and yes, also the topics where people within the community will rip into each other.
And which opinions are which have changed over time. Several years ago, the first time I said that I expected a peaceful partition of the US, the idea was ridiculed and people piled on. Today, it is perfectly acceptable to say that things are soon to come down to an actual shooting civil war. People are applauded for saying that they are leaving the country to avoid the war.
Granted, I said the cause would be dealing with climate change -- which I still say -- and the people today are talking fighting between the fascist and non-fascist sides. Or between the urban and rural sides. Or between the fundamental Christians and everyone who isn't. Criticism tends to be limited to the fact that those divisions don't correspond well with existing state boundaries.
"
You didn’t explain what is wrong with taking on Welsh’s bias in this case.
I'm not really sure we are talking about the same thing. I'm talking about Welsh's overall bias in that he wants to be right and he wants to tell everyone so. Neither of us knows anything about Hüseyin Doğru, so neither of us can comment intelligently, but if Germany is going too far, stepping back a bit, we can see how it comes about. Germany, given its history, not only the Holocaust, but also Munich, has a lot to overcome and it is understandable that pro Israel bias, along with the forceful campaign to equate any questioning of Israel with anti-semitism makes me wonder about the idea that Germany is simply doing this as a way of repressing voices. Making this out to be simply an argument about what levers government should use misses that whole problematic history. So it's hard to ignore that bias for me. YMMV
I kind of feel that the attitude that Welsh puts out is the same attitude that has someone like a Robert Kennedy or a Tulsi Gabbard effortlessly slide from left to right.
About LGM, I have noted that I avoid the comments and I've also posted about how I feel uncomfortable with Loomis' take no prisoners attitude. I don't know how the other front pagers feel, though when things get really bad in the comments, it does bubble up to the front page. It's pretty remarkable to have the situation where it looks like a front pager is trolling the commentators, but I do think a lot of their issues are not their political position, it is the speed at which conversation goes on over there, and the underlying snarkiness, which tends to magnify a lot of differences. So when you talk about the blog in that aspect, as I think you are when you talk about a 'certain atmosphere', I agree, but when you say "I fall about halfway between him and the LGM lefties" it sounds to me like you are suggesting the bloggers there occupy a point on the political spectrum, which I don't see.
About Epstein, your link says this
There are so many explanations and unanswered questions raised by the release, which also says that there is “no credible evidence … that Epstein blackmailed prominent individuals as part of his actions.” That means that the theories alleging Epstein was operating some kind of operation to collect incriminating information for a foreign government (most notably the Israelis) has also been dismissed by the U.S. government.
A friend on facebook noted that Ghislaine Maxwell's father, Robert Maxwell, was given a state funeral in Israel and that what Epstein did bore all the marks of what an intelligence agency would do to get leverage. Being in that framework, there was another post that zoomed that was someone posting a tweet from someone saying that they lived in an area where there were a lot of Russian émigrés and there was a noticable absence of ICE agents. So I do wonder.
"
LJ-
You didn’t explain what is wrong with taking on Welsh’s bias in this case. He was opposed to the Canadian government using its power in what he considers an illegitimate way against the truckers, who he does not support. Now he opposes the German government doing something similar to someone he is in sympathy with. He is saying he was right to say that people should oppose this use of government power because it is a form of tyranny that can be used against anyone.
I agree with him. The government shouldn’t use certain levers of power.
“ you need to be careful about taking on their biases.”
That applies to everyone about everything. You and I both have biases..
As for LGM, as a long time reader it has not escaped my notice that there are many posters and even more commenters. There is a certain atmosphere there, a way of acting, just as there is here and at every blog I have ever visited for any length of time. You pick up on what opinions are acceptable and which ones will induce a pile on and yes, also the topics where people within the community will rip into each other. By LGM standards I have all three types of opinions.
Which is all I will say. I limit myself on the number of arguments I am going to get into and this looks like two that I am going to drop.
Here is a third which I came to post about, but have nothing much to say except for what I sat in this paragraph. . Epstein. I have no specific theory about him, but am skeptical of the “ move along, nothing to see here” stance.
https://www.kenklippenstein.com/p/jeffrey-epstein-had-1000-victims
"
For those of you with a little time on your hands and/or the inclination, I offer this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/10/opinion/trolling-democracy.html?unlocked_article_code=1.VU8.A8K5.ebr2nefdqspV&smid=url-share
Passing political fad, or omen?
On “Plus ça change…”
the lack of visual art and, with a very notable exception, the apparent lack of sites for religious rituals.
I'm not sure this is so. My understanding is that cave art attributable to Neandethals have been found in the Loire and in Spain. The attribution is based on dating the paint used, which apparently (or allegedly) pre-dates homo sapiens' arrival in Europe.
The famous individual buried in Shanidar cave surrounded by pollen is often cited as an example of Neanderthal intentional burial practices, indicating symbolic thought and ritualistic behaviors.
On “An open thread on July 4th”
Yeah, sorry about that.
"
"Welch" in sundry comments should be "Welsh", right? As in this blog.
"
I would push back a bit on lumping LGM all together. I won't do a deep dive into each poster, but it's not really fair to suggest that there is one viewpoint when there are multiple authors.
Welch, on the other hand, is one person, so presumably (unless he has guest posters) his blog represents his view. The question of what kind of financial levers the government should use is an interesting question, and the case of Hüseyin Doğru seems pretty bad, but the problem is not the government using those levers, it is that what is happening is basically piggybacked on possibly the most incendiary question, the I/P one, which has a longer history than two other hot questions, abortion and the issue of trans There are others, the question of how much government is appropriate might be another, what racism is, what sexism is, but those problems have some definitional issues, where it is difficult to draw a line around what evidence should be considered.
Welsh seems more interested in being right than in understanding. He starts off with well, he didn't like the truckers strike, but he was opposed to freezing their accounts. and now, 10 years later, he has been proven correct! So yeah, you can learn a lot from other sources, but you need to be careful about taking on their biases.
"
Ok,here's the thing with my reluctance to have a bipartisan kumbayah here: I am unwilling to discuss the merits of bombing people to bits and that's what many to the right of me seem to have a rather high tolerance for.
Apart from this I'm actually quite a middle of the road social democrat, it's just that the Overton window seems to have shifted massively during the past 25 years.
"
I am just hoping we get to have midterm elections.
You and all of us, Marty.
Or: what Pro Bono said.
"
I think we could debate the merits of a policy in a civilised way, even if Trump favours it.
What, in my recollection, Marty found no sympathy for was the notion that voting for Trump might be a defensible action. Since Marty now hopes for, rather than expects, democratic elections, it seems that the rest of us were right in saying that it was not.
"
I was just teaching my son who just discovered music about playing on top of the beat vs. behind, etc.
The force is strong with this one!!! An advanced topic for a youngster - does your son play an instrument, or is he just listening?
Not a complaint, but in reality this just isn't possible.
You could be right.
:(
"
"Conservative lurkers, c'mon in! Just don't be jerks. We'll try not to be, too"
Not a complaint, but in reality this just isn't possible. The subjects are too polarized, it's too easy to lose perspective. Both sides. It is the nature of the Trump age,anyone conservative agrees with enough of his policies to be branded with both his policies and his psychopathy.
The hatred for those is so understandable as to make defending the smaller pieces not worthwhile.
I am just hoping we get to have midterm elections.
"
TP: Thanks, and back at you.
russell: a day or two late and therefore considerably out of the pocket so to speak, but I’ve appreciated your insights into Ringo (there was a past conversation I recall). I was just teaching my son who just discovered music about playing on top of the beat vs. behind, etc. He listened because it was on one of “his” songs and he really liked the song and didn’t know why that particular part had such good energy.
I’m listening to “Love” for the first time (came with a bunch of CD’s from an estate sale) on my “new” high-end vintage CD player on a good system. I know it’s probably sacrilegious but I rather like the mix.
"
“ bookmarked Ian Welch's blog some years ago, but rarely visit. He is not my kind of lefty. He makes my head hurt.”
I fall about halfway between him and the LGM lefties. They both irritate me in different ways. But you learn things from reading all sorts.
On the issue, I don’t think he is saying that we should exist in a strictly cash economy and if he did say that this would be dumb. But I think he is pointing to a new way for governments to crack down on dissent. Not that he is the first by any means.
"
Just to be clear, my point wasn't about using cryptocurrency, it was about the fact that a government has to control transactions for a number of reasons that are necessary and working with my student about how the EU is looking at controlling cryptocurrency suggests you are going to have the ways to control that will end up like Chekhov's gun.
"
I don't think it is realistic to expect nations to simply stay with cash money.
These days the vast majority of currency transactions are electronic. I doubt anyone (outside the looney far right, and not most even there) expect or want that to change. Cash (paper) can be handy for small transactions. But nobody uses it much for legal transactions over $100.
But crypto is a whole different deal. It's great for illegal transactions, or for evading taxes. And, if you get in early, it's an effective "bigger idiot" vehicle. But legitimate uses? No so much.
It may be possible to regulate it to the point that it's useful. But I haven't seen any even halfway plausible ideas for doing so.
"
I hadn't seen or didn't remember Ian Welch. The information about Hüseyin Doğru (love the diacritics!) is interesting, but I'm working online with a masters student who is researching how cryptocurrency legislation should be handled and Welch is not really thinking why the German government can do what it can. Like Donald, I don't know anything about the case, but I don't think it is realistic to expect nations to simply stay with cash money. One thing I like about Japan is that it is much more a cash economy than what Germany sounds like, but it's not clear to me if he wants Germany to be more like Japan, which I guess he imagines would clear up the problem, or wants the Government to put some guardrails because that will deal with the problem? It's not really clear.
Here's a website where Hüseyin Doğru is discussing it
https://diem25.org/en/author/huseyin-dogru/
But I can't get the page to load.
"
Donald,
I should say I know nothing of Hüseyin Doğru— never heard of him before.
Wasn't he Kim Jong Il's caddy when he shot 36 under par in one round of golf?
Juche!
I bookmarked Ian Welch's blog some years ago, but rarely visit. He is not my kind of lefty. He makes my head hurt.
"
bc: Lastly, in order to attract conservatives, IMHO, you have to at least want to hear another point of view.
Good to see you again, bc!
Put me down as definitely wanting to hear "another point of view" on any topic at all. Also put me down as willing to challenge any point of view -- time permitting, and if I feel like it.
Is it possible that, unlike you, some conservatives find it frustrating to be challenged when they set forth their "point of view" on ObWi? I mean, "hearing" and "accepting" are different things. Any posted comment is "heard" in a literal(-ish) sense. If it elicits no response, would that be less, or more, frustrating than a bunch of replies "refuting" it?
Hoping you pop up more often, and bring friends with you:)
--TP
"
I was a sucker for HP calculators and ending up buying five different ones.
"
Eva Marie Saint, currently the oldest living Oscar winner, is still kicking it at 101.
"
Richards and Willie Nelson seem to have inherited the mantle of the Betty White jokes. "Shouldn't someone be worrying about the kind of world our kids will leave for Keith and Willie?"
"
From back when HP made quality stuff, not just crappy printers.
Sometime while I was in graduate school (Texas, 1976-78) I went to one of HP's sales pitches for their engineering calculators. At one point the salesman asked if there were any petroleum engineering students in the crowd and got several hands up. "You, my friends, will someday soon be walking along a catwalk and drop your calculator, watch it bounce twice, go over the edge, and fall 20 feet to the ground. What will you have if that's a Texas Instruments calculator? Pieces." Then he wound up and throw the HP calculator hard enough to bounce it off the back wall. "With an HP, you'll just yell down and ask your buddy to pick up your calculator."
On “Plus ça change…”
Was historical iconoclasm maybe just an occasional outburst of Neanderthal ancestry?
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.