Kirk used his notions of civil discourse and open debate as cover for his bigotry. When I hear "Prove Me Wrong," I can only wonder why a normal person would need someone to prove such horrible ideas wrong.
Spoke too soon, the comment approval thing does not work as I thought it did. I'm reminded of my favorite joke in Friends. Rachel just discovered a typo on her resume after making 1000 photocopies and getting the gang to stuff them in envelopes and she says 'oh god, do you think it is on all of them?' and Joey replies 'nah, I'm sure the xerox caught a few'.
No worries, the setting is that once people are approved, they are good to go and it transferred people who were already in the comments. Unfortunately, because we made the archive site, people who haven't commented here have to get approved, so it shouldn't be too onerous.
I'm working my way through getting the comments back in, which is tedious, but I am glancing at old posts and names so it's nostalgic at the same time. It's pretty astonishing to me that a simply text file contains all this, and when it is parsed, all these conversations spring up. Though (and it may be fatigue) I thought that I saw a post in the text file with one author, but appeared with another author on the blog, so I'll do some checks to make sure that authorship is correct.
lj, I imagine this has taken and is taking you huge amounts of time and effort, when you do have a day job! I hope it's clear that any comments of mine about the new site are purely for the sake of alerting you (and everyone) about any glitches, or changes from the status quo ante (like the possibility that posts with links are delayed for moderation, as on the Charlie Kirk piece. Eeek, does that mean you are going to have to spend time doing the moderation as well??).
the idea that the algorithm made him is not an argument I want to make,
I get really tired of the suggestions that people have no agency. Sure, if you immerse yourself in crazy, it may make you crazy (or crazier). But nobody forced you to go there. And nobody forced you to play out computer games in the real world on real people.
One could as well argue that Kavanaugh raped a girl while he was in college because he was immersed in a frat boy culture which encouraged that kind of behavior.
None of which is to suggest that the algorithms used by web browsers and search engines are not deeply problematic. But you're still responsible for your own actions.
Iirc it was the post right before “What to do?” but the wayback machine’s last entry is for Aug 23, and it was later than that
Right after "What to do?" I have it w/o any comments in a different file and will send that to lj. By the time I tried extracting it with comments, Typepad had gone into partial failure mode. I'll keep checking from time to time in hopes that they get it running properly for a few more days before the final shutdown.
Morning all,
Hartmut, if it happened then, I think that post was lost.
GftNC, it looks like the comments are showing for posts up until Sept 2004. The comments are in the database, but aren't appearing. I'll work on fixing that this week.
DaveC, about the SASE, I'm worried that the new Trump tariffs are going to disrupt that, so I think we may have to go back to smoke signals.
I am sure about him. He was a professional hate propagandist who organized campaigns of intimidation against individuals and groups. I posted about his attack on my sister's church below, but my comment is in moderation.
Charlie Kirk organized a hate campaign against my sister's Christian church for the "crime" of being woke. They were subjected to weeks of death threats and had to hold their events and services at a different church for a couple of months.
That was maybe five years ago? Charlie's role in American politics is to popularize fascism by sticking a smiley face on it. He was an overt hater when younger, but more recently promoted a persona of the nice reasonable guy who talks about traditional values, patriotism, the importance of family blah blah to suck people in and then dishes up the openly racist stuff once they are inside a ways. He is heavily recruiting within the evangelical movement.
I can't say enough to express my gratitude, lj. When I saw your email I actually whooped with delight. Haven't looked at the archive site yet, but infinite thanks to Michael Cain for it.
FWIW, my name and email seem to have carried over from the old site. No preview button that I can see, which will keep us on our toes :)
I have paid no attention to Kirk either, beyond what various liberal blogs would say about him, and now his canonization as a "free speech" advocate. Thos elevation has required everyone to ignore the content of his speech, which is a requirement for what I'd call free speech absolutism, exemplified by the Nazi march through Skokie IL back in the 70-s supported by the ACLU. There's an assumption in absolutism that the answer to free hate speech is more speech, which rests on an assumption of relative equality of speech. Don't like Kirk's speech? Ask your dad and a few billionaires for money to start your own Turning Point, and see if you can get MSNBC (or whatever they're called now) and the Democratic party to hype it.
Kirk's speech is an example of how speech can be leveraged into power, which is where free speech absolutism gets very fuzzy. Now you're defending Kirk's right to weild power, not just speech, and Kirk, like Rush Limbaugh, was very good at his chosen profession of using speech, and weilded a lot of power within the Republican party.
I knew barely anything about Charlie Kirk, but reading some of the absolutely appalling things he has said and advocated, I was truly revolted. This doesn't of course mean that I rejoice in or welcome his assassination; the political and ideological polarisation in America is quite terrifying enough, without bringing murder into it. What really scares me is the moving of the Overton Window; because of Kirk and people like him it seems increasingly possible to insult people's character and intelligence on the basis of their race and attract millions of fans and followers as a consequence. And, on the same Overton Window issue, normalising discussion of whether women should have the right to vote really scares me:
I am old enough to remember when your choice of Blogger or Typepad said something about you, but I don’t remember what that was … maybe 2003?
It is our duty today to remind everyone what the Bushes left us: Clarence Thomas, John Roberts, Samuel Alito. Oh, and hundreds of thousands of dead or broke (or both!) people.
In trying to work out how to navigate the archive site, I clicked on the Andrew Olmsted stuff. A couple of things (this is not a complaint - God knows that would be ridiculous from someone as clueless as me), just feedback about stuff you may already know about:
1. Both "hilzoy's Final Post" and "Andrew's final post" seem to go to the same post, called "Remembering Andy Olmsted".
2. Since I couldn't find the long thread of the comments, I went into the calendar archive, and as far as I could see none of the posts include the threads of comments. Am I missing something obvious, is this the new normal, or is this going to change?
I have a couple of suggestions regarding the commenting infrastructure.
First of all, I would like to see ongoing support for cuneiform, just like the good old days.
Also, having a requirement for comments to be sent with SASE could give the stamp collecting subject matter a big boost.
DaveC
Hallelujah! So many thanks to Michael, lj, Janie and anybody else who was involved. Days without a check in to ObWi felt weird - I'm so very glad it's back!
Hey Hartmut, glad you made it! If you can find that post in the wayback machine ( http://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/obsidianwings.blogs.com ) and take a screenshot, I can see if it didn't get transferred over or what.
According to Gemini, the default allowed tags are usually the following:
anchor, blockquote, strong or b for bold, em or i for italic and a couple of others.
I noticed that in the archive the post on proving citizenship when faced with ICE seems to be missing.
I wanted to post this from maddowblog there but found all comments sections closed before thw whole site got reduced to just the blog header.
* A U.S. citizen detained by ICE for three days tells his story: “George Retes is a 25-year-old U.S. Army veteran who served a tour in Iraq. On July 10, while on his way to work as a security guard at a Southern California cannabis farm, he was detained by federal immigration agents, despite telling them that he is an American citizen and that his wallet and identification were in his nearby car, Retes told me. While arresting him, the agents knelt on his back and his neck, he said, making it difficult for him to breathe. Held in a jail cell for three days and nights, he was not allowed to make a phone call, see an attorney, appear before a judge, or take a shower to wash off pepper spray and tear gas that the agents had used, according to the Institute for Justice, a public-interest law firm that is representing Retes.”
We really need to bring GIGO back into daily conversation and peoples' general awareness.
Not just the concept that original premises shape the reliability of output from the very start, but a concept of being extremely skeptical about the reliability of any information that really turns your crank.
I just watched a video where the watchlist was referenced. Since I hadn't paid much attention to him before, I may be influenced by some post-death whitewashing.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
Kirk used his notions of civil discourse and open debate as cover for his bigotry. When I hear "Prove Me Wrong," I can only wonder why a normal person would need someone to prove such horrible ideas wrong.
On “Excelsior!”
Spoke too soon, the comment approval thing does not work as I thought it did. I'm reminded of my favorite joke in Friends. Rachel just discovered a typo on her resume after making 1000 photocopies and getting the gang to stuff them in envelopes and she says 'oh god, do you think it is on all of them?' and Joey replies 'nah, I'm sure the xerox caught a few'.
"
No worries, the setting is that once people are approved, they are good to go and it transferred people who were already in the comments. Unfortunately, because we made the archive site, people who haven't commented here have to get approved, so it shouldn't be too onerous.
I'm working my way through getting the comments back in, which is tedious, but I am glancing at old posts and names so it's nostalgic at the same time. It's pretty astonishing to me that a simply text file contains all this, and when it is parsed, all these conversations spring up. Though (and it may be fatigue) I thought that I saw a post in the text file with one author, but appeared with another author on the blog, so I'll do some checks to make sure that authorship is correct.
"
lj, I imagine this has taken and is taking you huge amounts of time and effort, when you do have a day job! I hope it's clear that any comments of mine about the new site are purely for the sake of alerting you (and everyone) about any glitches, or changes from the status quo ante (like the possibility that posts with links are delayed for moderation, as on the Charlie Kirk piece. Eeek, does that mean you are going to have to spend time doing the moderation as well??).
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
Partly checking on how things work here.
the idea that the algorithm made him is not an argument I want to make,
I get really tired of the suggestions that people have no agency. Sure, if you immerse yourself in crazy, it may make you crazy (or crazier). But nobody forced you to go there. And nobody forced you to play out computer games in the real world on real people.
One could as well argue that Kavanaugh raped a girl while he was in college because he was immersed in a frat boy culture which encouraged that kind of behavior.
None of which is to suggest that the algorithms used by web browsers and search engines are not deeply problematic. But you're still responsible for your own actions.
On “Excelsior!”
Iirc it was the post right before “What to do?” but the wayback machine’s last entry is for Aug 23, and it was later than that
Right after "What to do?" I have it w/o any comments in a different file and will send that to lj. By the time I tried extracting it with comments, Typepad had gone into partial failure mode. I'll keep checking from time to time in hopes that they get it running properly for a few more days before the final shutdown.
"
Morning all,
Hartmut, if it happened then, I think that post was lost.
GftNC, it looks like the comments are showing for posts up until Sept 2004. The comments are in the database, but aren't appearing. I'll work on fixing that this week.
DaveC, about the SASE, I'm worried that the new Trump tariffs are going to disrupt that, so I think we may have to go back to smoke signals.
"
Checking in for pre-clearance.
"
Congratulations on the new address!
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
I am sure about him. He was a professional hate propagandist who organized campaigns of intimidation against individuals and groups. I posted about his attack on my sister's church below, but my comment is in moderation.
"
Charlie Kirk organized a hate campaign against my sister's Christian church for the "crime" of being woke. They were subjected to weeks of death threats and had to hold their events and services at a different church for a couple of months.
That was maybe five years ago? Charlie's role in American politics is to popularize fascism by sticking a smiley face on it. He was an overt hater when younger, but more recently promoted a persona of the nice reasonable guy who talks about traditional values, patriotism, the importance of family blah blah to suck people in and then dishes up the openly racist stuff once they are inside a ways. He is heavily recruiting within the evangelical movement.
On “Excelsior!”
I can't say enough to express my gratitude, lj. When I saw your email I actually whooped with delight. Haven't looked at the archive site yet, but infinite thanks to Michael Cain for it.
FWIW, my name and email seem to have carried over from the old site. No preview button that I can see, which will keep us on our toes :)
Thanks again,
--TP
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
I have paid no attention to Kirk either, beyond what various liberal blogs would say about him, and now his canonization as a "free speech" advocate. Thos elevation has required everyone to ignore the content of his speech, which is a requirement for what I'd call free speech absolutism, exemplified by the Nazi march through Skokie IL back in the 70-s supported by the ACLU. There's an assumption in absolutism that the answer to free hate speech is more speech, which rests on an assumption of relative equality of speech. Don't like Kirk's speech? Ask your dad and a few billionaires for money to start your own Turning Point, and see if you can get MSNBC (or whatever they're called now) and the Democratic party to hype it.
Kirk's speech is an example of how speech can be leveraged into power, which is where free speech absolutism gets very fuzzy. Now you're defending Kirk's right to weild power, not just speech, and Kirk, like Rush Limbaugh, was very good at his chosen profession of using speech, and weilded a lot of power within the Republican party.
"
My comment on this is apparently "awaiting moderation". Maybe because it has links?
"
I knew barely anything about Charlie Kirk, but reading some of the absolutely appalling things he has said and advocated, I was truly revolted. This doesn't of course mean that I rejoice in or welcome his assassination; the political and ideological polarisation in America is quite terrifying enough, without bringing murder into it. What really scares me is the moving of the Overton Window; because of Kirk and people like him it seems increasingly possible to insult people's character and intelligence on the basis of their race and attract millions of fans and followers as a consequence. And, on the same Overton Window issue, normalising discussion of whether women should have the right to vote really scares me:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/douglas-wilson-evangelical-hegseth.html?unlocked_article_code=1.l08.9djO.hh9sD539663c&smid=url-share
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/sep/13/womens-suffrage-week-in-patriarchy
"
I am old enough to remember when your choice of Blogger or Typepad said something about you, but I don’t remember what that was … maybe 2003?
It is our duty today to remind everyone what the Bushes left us: Clarence Thomas, John Roberts, Samuel Alito. Oh, and hundreds of thousands of dead or broke (or both!) people.
Never forgive, never forget.
On “Excelsior!”
In trying to work out how to navigate the archive site, I clicked on the Andrew Olmsted stuff. A couple of things (this is not a complaint - God knows that would be ridiculous from someone as clueless as me), just feedback about stuff you may already know about:
1. Both "hilzoy's Final Post" and "Andrew's final post" seem to go to the same post, called "Remembering Andy Olmsted".
2. Since I couldn't find the long thread of the comments, I went into the calendar archive, and as far as I could see none of the posts include the threads of comments. Am I missing something obvious, is this the new normal, or is this going to change?
"
Iirc it was the post right before "What to do?" but the wayback machine's last entry is for Aug 23, and it was later than that
"
I have a couple of suggestions regarding the commenting infrastructure.
First of all, I would like to see ongoing support for cuneiform, just like the good old days.
Also, having a requirement for comments to be sent with SASE could give the stamp collecting subject matter a big boost.
DaveC
On “What to do?”
Hallelujah! So many thanks to Michael, lj, Janie and anybody else who was involved. Days without a check in to ObWi felt weird - I'm so very glad it's back!
On “Excelsior!”
Hey Hartmut, glad you made it! If you can find that post in the wayback machine ( http://web.archive.org/web/20250000000000*/obsidianwings.blogs.com ) and take a screenshot, I can see if it didn't get transferred over or what.
According to Gemini, the default allowed tags are usually the following:
anchor, blockquote, strong or b for bold, em or i for italic and a couple of others.
"
Hi!
Fortunately lj still had my email adress.
I noticed that in the archive the post on proving citizenship when faced with ICE seems to be missing.
I wanted to post this from maddowblog there but found all comments sections closed before thw whole site got reduced to just the blog header.
* A U.S. citizen detained by ICE for three days tells his story: “George Retes is a 25-year-old U.S. Army veteran who served a tour in Iraq. On July 10, while on his way to work as a security guard at a Southern California cannabis farm, he was detained by federal immigration agents, despite telling them that he is an American citizen and that his wallet and identification were in his nearby car, Retes told me. While arresting him, the agents knelt on his back and his neck, he said, making it difficult for him to breathe. Held in a jail cell for three days and nights, he was not allowed to make a phone call, see an attorney, appear before a judge, or take a shower to wash off pepper spray and tear gas that the agents had used, according to the Institute for Justice, a public-interest law firm that is representing Retes.”
Btw, how do tags work here? Still >/>?
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
We really need to bring GIGO back into daily conversation and peoples' general awareness.
Not just the concept that original premises shape the reliability of output from the very start, but a concept of being extremely skeptical about the reliability of any information that really turns your crank.
On “Excelsior!”
Hi, lj!
I just got your email with the links to the archive and this new site.
Many, many - oh, a googolplex! - of thanks for preserving and continuing ObWi!
On “Kuzushi and Charlie Kirk”
I just watched a video where the watchlist was referenced. Since I hadn't paid much attention to him before, I may be influenced by some post-death whitewashing.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.