And since I'm posting links, here's one (I don't have a gift button, but let's hope it's viewable) from the New Yorker, called What MAGA Can Teach Democrats About Organising - and Infighting. I haven't read it, but it sounded as if it might (or might not) be of interest to the ObWi commentariat:
lj asked me to post a guest link to this conversation between Ezra Klein and Adam Tooze, headlined How the World Sees America, which I was very happy to do!
Left-antisemitism arises mostly from anti-Zionism - when an anti-Zionist goes too far in associating Jewish ethnicity with the State of Israel. It can also come from an association of Jews with (unpopular) investment banking. (See also Zhdanov's coded phrase "rootless cosmopolitan".)
Right-antisemitism is quite different. The right is generally sympathetic towards Israel's killing Palestinians, whom it thinks of as browner than Jewish Israelis. But domestically, in the USA, it sees Jews as less American than white gentiles. The extremists are sympathetic to Hitler's ideas about 'Aryanization', denying, or even supporting, the holocaust. But they've got no special objection to Jewish financiers, unless (George Soros) they're openly leftist.
The left tends to see antisemitism from its side as little more than a careless overstepping of boundaries - that's the perspective of Jeremy Corbyn, in the UK. Whereas the right thinks that the only antisemitism that matters is showing insufficient support for Israel.
When commentators on each side speak of antisemitism, there's not that much in common in their meanings.
My campus is one of the campuses that had a pro-Palestinian encampment that was taken down with a massive law enforcement action. (I was not there. I had students and colleagues on either side whose perspectives and reasons for their involvement I can sympathize with. It was a complex situation. No one actually involved on either side wanted anyone else on campus to be physically threatened or harmed.)
I'm not going to get into a big post over this because bc has enough to respond to on other lines. I merely note that the public-at-large's understanding and descriptions of what was going on on campuses bear little resemblance to what it was actually like. The media accounts read like mock epics without any of the irony.
The actual drama and foment was tiny right up to the point where the helicopters and riot police showed up in overwhelming numbers and stormed in like they were dealing with a violent mob.
I'll leave this dogpile be except to note this I’m not arguing that at all. I’m simply pointing out that if a particular jurisdiction refuses to cooperate on ICE detainer requests and someone is released, ICE has to go get them. Simple as that. My understanding is that ICE is in the field in Minneapolis more because of the lack of cooperation in Hennepin County.
'Simple as that' does a lot of work here. As I noted, there are a number of factors that contribute to this, so sending 2,000 ICE and CBP agents rather than addressing any of those other factors makes this a disingenuous argument if made by the government, though I don't see it featuring in any of the DHS press releases. I suspect that if they said this, it would be legally actionable in that they are ignoring laws that have been made appropriately in order to get an outcome the DHS would prefer. This is law-breaking, regardless of which side does it.
bc: The left has occupied college campuses and aligned with terrorists using violence or threats thereof to intimidate Jewish students. Antisemitism has been mainstreamed.
"Jews will not replace us!" is a well-known chant on The Left, now?
Christianist schizophrenia w.r.t. "Jews" is pathological.
If I have said anything to you, or that would lead anyone here to think I would associate with anything like that, I sincerely apologize.
You didn't, bc. But it strikes me that you have not been exposed to the range of conservative voices that many of us have. It wouldn't be surprising, if so. It's easy to end up living in an information bubble, if one doesn't make an enormous effort not to do so. I see it all the time, and on many ideological sides, including the centrist, left and progressive.
bc - That Prairieland Detention Center case is definitely worth some examination. Bondi's people claim that 19 people so far are part of a "North Texas Antifa Cell," and are making much of the five guilty pleas.
Here are two articles about the action and the people who have been charged - from The Guardian and from The New Republic:
...of the two, I find TNR's article to be better supported and more nuanced, but the Guardian has more personal details about some of the people involved that seem like they are worth consideration.
Just based on what I have read about the case, I'd say that two or three of the people involved were dangerous idiot who might have aspired to being an antifa cell. Another small number were friends who were trying to help an idiot friend who did stupid things in support of them, but who weren't part of any plot at the start, and the majority were protesters who got caught in bad circumstances and exercised poor judgment in not backing out when the idiots started talking big in the encrypted group chat.
Throw the dudes with guns in jail. Treat the vandals like vandals.
As for the rest, I'd need to see a lot more evidence of actual coordination and planning and association before I believed anything that law enforcement said about the majority of the people who showed up.
Thank the gods none of them had a sandwich, or who knows what charges might have been filed?
"russell, I am truly shocked that anyone, much less multiple rank and file conservatives, have said anything like that to you."
I appreciate your saying this. Truly.
None of it worries me that much, because nearly all of that has been online, and a lot of folks use the online world to basically vent.
I don't think I've ever run into it here on ObWi. I spent some time on RedState, where it was dead common, and I also hang on Facebook a lot (for my sins), where it is not quite as common, but not uncommon.
I really don't worry about it, it's just an observation. Some people like to talk the big talk.
I’ve been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain’t likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can’t wait to shoot me.
russell, I am truly shocked that anyone, much less multiple rank and file conservatives, have said anything like that to you. I'm actually dumfounded. I have never, ever heard anything like that directed at me (or anyone I know) and it must be truly painful and troubling to hear. I vehemently reject anyone who says anything like that, conservative or not. If I hadn't read so much of what you have written, and didn't know where your heart is (I do, and it's good), I frankly wouldn't believe you. But I do.
Honestly, I need to step back and let that sink in. It hurts me to hear that. I am so sorry. If I have said anything to you, or that would lead anyone here to think I would associate with anything like that, I sincerely apologize.
I would define the specific type of "dog pile" that I see here as follows: any conservative pushing back a bit or pointing out factors others may not have considered gets dumped on him or her not only having to respond to many community members here (which is expected), but also the burden of defending arguments that were never made (or at least were never intended to be made). More curiosity (on my part too) would be helpful.
lj: It’s quite spectacular to see a conservative feel that this process can be blown off when a new president comes in.
I'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply pointing out that if a particular jurisdiction refuses to cooperate on ICE detainer requests and someone is released, ICE has to go get them. Simple as that. My understanding is that ICE is in the field in Minneapolis more because of the lack of cooperation in Hennepin County. Michael Cain raises some good points on cooperation in general, but my understanding is those reasons are not why Hennepin County doesn't honor ICE detainers.
. . .if someone comes to ObWi and posts MAGA and Trump exculpating arguments (eg that the Minneapolis protesters will be largely to blame if as a result of their actions Trump invokes the Insurrection Act) . . .
I didn't argue that. If I was unclear, let me clear that up now. My point was that defunding ICE might give Trump an argument in favor of invoking the Act. I'm not advocating either the defunding or the invocation of the Act at all. Nor am I exculpating anyone. I have commented on how ICE can and should improve. I also think the actions of the protestors have bearing on the issue. If the protestors were just protesting instead of actively, intentionally, and in an organized way obstructing, there would be no argument for invocation of the Act. Is that "blaming" them? I don't think so. I'm just pointing out what they are doing.
wj: Gotcha on the clarification. I understand now.
Judging from the videos of those killings, I’d say a first degree (or whatever the term is in Minnesota) murder charge would be straightforward.
I don't think it is anywhere as straightforward as you might think. I could be wrong. To be clear: I'm not arguing the shootings were justified. What I have seen troubles me greatly. I'll await the full review.
The example of Llangari does indeed sound messed up. I'm sure many such examples can be found. As can be many examples of situations where the operation of local PD's have been confounded by the actions of ICE and CBP.
A detainer is a non-binding request from immigration to a non-federal police force or prison to hold someone for 48 hours, so they can come and pick that person up.
As has been pointed out numerous times, immigration enforcement IS NOT the responsibility of local police. Further, having local police involved in immigration enforcement makes their work much more complicated in communities where there are a lot of immigrants. By "makes more complicated", I mean it undermines any relationship of trust between the immigrant community and the local police.
Who have to deal with that community, regardless of the immigration status of folks who are in it. This is not a trivial concern. People won't call the cops if they think it could result in their being deported. Especially under the current implementation of ICE/CBP operations, where people are seized and deported EVEN IF THEY HAVE LEGAL STANDING TO BE IN THE COUNTRY.
Happens every day.
So some communities decline to honor detainers. They have other things for their cops to do.
There is a simple solution for ICE / CBP, which is to get a judicial warrant. I'm sure it's a PITA to get a judge to sign off on every person they want to grab, but it provides a basic amount of oversight to their operations, and gives the local PD some guarantee that there actually is a basis for holding the person.
In any case, the idea that MN as a jurisdiction declines to honor detainers "leaves ICE little choice" but to literally invade Minneapolis, assault and shoot people for protesting (see also 1st A), violently break into people's homes without a warrant (see also 4th A), and generally create an environment of utter chaos, seems excessive.
To me.
I suspect other options - other choices - were available to them.
A little more googling got me to the ACLU Minnesota page and there have been several cases where sheriffs have been sued because they extended imprisonment for ICE
"I thought you might be focused on the homicidal crazies"
When the homicidal crazies on one side outnumber those on the other by multiples, yes, I find that worth noting.
They are "outliers" who the current POTUS has described as "beautiful people".
The left brought us the George Floyd riots, after a man was murdered in cold blood by a police officer on video.
The right brought us J6, after their candidate lost a legitimate election. They beat the crap out of Capitol police, leading to the death of some, and literally dropped trou and shit in the Capitol. We came extremely close to an honest-to-god violent autogolpe, at the instigation of the man who currently holds the office of POTUS. We came damned close to the murder of members of Congress.
And all of them were, to a person, subsequently pardoned. Every single one. Regardless of what they had done that day.
Show me anything on the left remotely comparable.
The right brought us the Bundy episode, where a bunch of self-appointed "militia" bros stood down federal officers at gunpoint. And then occupied and thoroughly trashed a public park facility.
Because Bundy didn't want to pay his grazing fees.
The left brought protests against Israel's Gaza invasion.
The right brought us Charlottesville, with bands of punk ass thugs brandishing torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". And a fine young right wing asshole driving his car into a crowd and killing a young woman. The right brought us the Tree Of Life shooting and the firebombing of Governor Shapiro's home.
The left brought us antifa, whoever the hell they are. The right brought us the KKK (still here), the Order, the Base, Patriot Front, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and a smattering of explicitly Nazi-aligned groups. The right brought us people holding office and positions of public responsibility who are on record as being "fans of Hitler".
And I'm leaving aside the number of times - the very large number of times - that I've been told that it's only a matter of time before People Like Me are subject to summary execution by the patriots on the right who own all the guns. I've been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain't likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can't wait to shoot me.
When "the left" gets out of hand, stuff gets broken. When the right gets out of hand, people get killed.
Hell yeah, the homicidal folks are an issue. And your side has most of them.
Some counties and cities (e.g. Hennepin County and Minneapolis) were not. They release them into the public sphere rather than cooperate. Now the AG (Keith Ellison) doubled down, issuing an opinion that honoring detainers violates Minnesota law, even when there is an agreement with the feds (287(g) agreements).
1) The 287(g) agreements -- Hennepin County doesn't have one -- state explicitly that the state/local authority is responsible for the costs of jailing detainees until ICE gets around to picking them up. As I read the MOA document, that responsibility is open-ended: ICE does not guarantee how quickly they will come get the detainee. At least in recent history, ICE/CBP has refused to reimburse any local authorities, 287(g) agreement or not.
2) In some states there are explicit laws that forbid spending state/county moneys to enforce federal law. Arguably, holding someone beyond when they would have been otherwise released only because of an ICE/CBP detainer request violates such laws, at least w/o reimbursement.
3) SCOTUS case law says that the choice is up to the state/local authority. The feds can't require state/local authorities to spend state/local money enforcing federal law.
4) At least in my state, rural counties tend to have surplus jail cells and non-rural counties do not. Elsewhere, there are extreme cases. There was a huge fuss when it turned out LA County was releasing some famous people who got 30-day sentences after one night in jail. As it turned out, LA County was in the situation that to create space for people who would be sentenced today, each morning they released anyone who had less than 30 days left on their sentence. You didn't have to be famous for 30 days to mean overnight.
What ICE is doing in Minneapolis (and other places to a lesser degree) is abhorrent. I really can't accept the idea that the difference between now and during Obama's terms is that he was "on the same team." That's absurd.
Maybe check out opinion polls. It's not just Democrats who are pissed about it. Minneapolis is being turned inside out. People don't want their home patrolled by out-of-control armed thugs, believe it or not.
bc: I don’t know if anyone can be “simply murdered.” And your comment implies some sort of comparison between a citizen being wrongfully detained by ICE and a citizen being murdered by an illegal alien. I reject that.
Obviously I seriously unclear. Sorry about that. I was referring to those murdered by ICE. (Which, I agree, is definitely not comparable with unlawful detention by ICE ). Judging from the videos of those killings, I'd say a first degree (or whatever the term is in Minnesota) murder charge would be straightforward.
This is a central issue. [that city and county jails were not releasing people in their custody to ICE for deportation]
It may come as a shock, but I disagree. Comparing state prisons (where a prisoner would go only after being convicted of a felony with a sentence of at least one year) with city and country jails holding not only people who would, after conviction, be moved to the DOC, but also people on lesser charges or people waiting for their cases to be adjudicated is apples and hand grenades.
Minnesota does have separation statutes (which are basically sanctuary policies) and I'm sure that part of the mix for DHS to challenge those policies. However, they are part of a legal framework, and challenging them by creating conditions on the ground that "heighten the contradictions" is something that I thought conservatives abhorred. I guess we all become what we hate.
Because ICE and DHS is trying to create a hostile environment [in order to reduce people coming illegally], they are creating a situation where city and country jails feel obliged to refuse them because ICE hopes to deport them before they have had a trial or because of what might be a minor offense. ICE is looking to deport any immigrant with any kind of criminal conviction, in an approach reminiscent of the Vietnam era "kill them all and let god sort them out." It's clear that the approach is arrest first and make them prove they are innocent. The procession of stories of people being shipped to other states or simply stopped, detained, and then released somewhere far out of the way is too common not to see.
And if they are made so uncomfortable that they leave, so much the better. And given that a lot of low and middle income people are a lost paycheck from banktruptcy, sending them out of state or forcing them to spend money they don't have is not a bug, it's a feature.
has some discussion of these issues. Your argument seems to be local jails in Minnesota are more resistant to ICE and so force needs to be applied to them. But the reason they are more resistant is because of legislation that was drafted, debated, agreed to, and signed into law. It's quite spectacular to see a conservative feel that this process can be blown off when a new president comes in.
I've noted previously (in the discussion of Minaj Hasan's podcast) (and it pains me to do so again) that all the presidents except Reagan had versions of this 'hostile environment' (the phrase is a UK one, but it is basically same shit on a different day) So it's not that the administration is doing something totally new, but at some point, (to draw on more Marxist phraseology "change in quantity becomes a change in quality."
This comment is too long already, but I would also observe that it is not mere coincidence that this is occurring where George Floyd was murdered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
That murder created opposition to police overreach and probably helps to drive the reaction that you see.
I've wondered about the difference between a dogpile and a pile-on, but from what I see today, they are roughly the same thing. I've previously assumed that if someone comes to ObWi and posts MAGA and Trump exculpating arguments (eg that the Minneapolis protesters will be largely to blame if as a result of their actions Trump invokes the Insurrection Act) that they are prepared to meet questioning, and refutation (an example of the latter is russell's upthread on rightwing v leftwing violence), but perhaps this isn't true? Maybe lj can explain how or to what extent this applies or doesn't....
Thanks for recognizing the "dog pile" phenomena. I think I answered the choice of Minneapolis (vs. Minnesota writ large). And I suspect it being in Gov. Walz' back yard was a plus for Trump.
nous:
I lot there. I didn't ignore it. I'm not convinced Antifa has as little involvement as you say. I note that Antifa has targeted ICE:
Basically, the predominance of the right wing in US political violence is a pretty well-established fact.
I thought you might be focusing on the homicidal crazies. IMO, you paint with way to broad a brush. While I acknowledge the point, they are outliers. The right roundly condemned Timothy McVeigh, for example. The crazies do not enjoy widespread support by either left or right. I almost put all of them in the same basket and I think it does a disservice to attribute the nut jobs and terrorists to the mainstream left or right.
The left commits far more assaults, property damage, riots more, etc in the name of political issues. Protests leaning into riot/violence is a familiar pattern since 2020. In addition, the left has blocked access to conservative speakers at college, often resorting to intimidation or violence. The left has occupied college campuses and aligned with terrorists using violence or threats thereof to intimidate Jewish students. Antisemitism has been mainstreamed. The cheers from mainstreamers on the left following the Trump assassination attempts and the Charlie Kirk shooting are troubling.
The right is far from perfect, but I note the pushback to, for example, Carlson’s interview with Fuentes and Kevin Roberts’ defense of that. We know we have some problems and are pushing back against it. Maybe I’m just not privy to the same thing happening on the left?
Hsh: It’s interesting that under the Obama administration there were so many deportations . . .
I think it is as simple as he’s a Democrat and his predecessor didn’t let in 10-20 million illegal immigrants in 4 years. Obama had more cooperation with local law enforcement. I agree that it is very interesting. Obama did some fancy foot work on the statistic, though, reporting turnaways at the border as deportations to look tougher that he was. The exact same guy in Minnesota running things now was decorated under Obama (Tom Homan). While the ALCU complained that the border patrol was “monstruous” under Obama and there were some protests, I think the pushback was muted simply because he was on the same team.
Not getting involved isn’t the same as obstructing (or even merely objecting).
True, but this isn’t going to the beach. If someone is subject to deportation and has a dangerous criminal record, why would an agency pledged to keeping the public safe not want that person removed? I do understand some petty crimes not being passed on. But I simply don’t get the more serious ones. Without cooperation, ICE has to go find the person. And it’s pretty hard to do that with what I’m seeing.
Not getting involved isn't the same as obstructing (or even merely objecting). What I think wj means is that virtually no one is going to complain about ICE deporting dangerous people in the country illegally if ICE is doing it properly according to the law. None of that requires state and local agencies to assist in the effort.
I don't mind if my neighbor wants to go the beach, but that doesn't mean I'm giving him a towel.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.
On “Moral insanity”
And since I'm posting links, here's one (I don't have a gift button, but let's hope it's viewable) from the New Yorker, called What MAGA Can Teach Democrats About Organising - and Infighting. I haven't read it, but it sounded as if it might (or might not) be of interest to the ObWi commentariat:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2026/02/02/what-maga-can-teach-democrats-about-organizing-and-infighting
"
lj asked me to post a guest link to this conversation between Ezra Klein and Adam Tooze, headlined How the World Sees America, which I was very happy to do!
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/30/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-adam-tooze.html?unlocked_article_code=1.IlA.4-M0.6_WnTjSfoDKr&smid=url-share
On “But tell me what you really mean”
Thanks all.
LJ, absolutely no worries. Sorry about the threadjack.
On “Moral insanity”
An observation about left and right antisemitism:
Left-antisemitism arises mostly from anti-Zionism - when an anti-Zionist goes too far in associating Jewish ethnicity with the State of Israel. It can also come from an association of Jews with (unpopular) investment banking. (See also Zhdanov's coded phrase "rootless cosmopolitan".)
Right-antisemitism is quite different. The right is generally sympathetic towards Israel's killing Palestinians, whom it thinks of as browner than Jewish Israelis. But domestically, in the USA, it sees Jews as less American than white gentiles. The extremists are sympathetic to Hitler's ideas about 'Aryanization', denying, or even supporting, the holocaust. But they've got no special objection to Jewish financiers, unless (George Soros) they're openly leftist.
The left tends to see antisemitism from its side as little more than a careless overstepping of boundaries - that's the perspective of Jeremy Corbyn, in the UK. Whereas the right thinks that the only antisemitism that matters is showing insufficient support for Israel.
When commentators on each side speak of antisemitism, there's not that much in common in their meanings.
"
My campus is one of the campuses that had a pro-Palestinian encampment that was taken down with a massive law enforcement action. (I was not there. I had students and colleagues on either side whose perspectives and reasons for their involvement I can sympathize with. It was a complex situation. No one actually involved on either side wanted anyone else on campus to be physically threatened or harmed.)
I'm not going to get into a big post over this because bc has enough to respond to on other lines. I merely note that the public-at-large's understanding and descriptions of what was going on on campuses bear little resemblance to what it was actually like. The media accounts read like mock epics without any of the irony.
The actual drama and foment was tiny right up to the point where the helicopters and riot police showed up in overwhelming numbers and stormed in like they were dealing with a violent mob.
"
I'll leave this dogpile be except to note this
I’m not arguing that at all. I’m simply pointing out that if a particular jurisdiction refuses to cooperate on ICE detainer requests and someone is released, ICE has to go get them. Simple as that. My understanding is that ICE is in the field in Minneapolis more because of the lack of cooperation in Hennepin County.
'Simple as that' does a lot of work here. As I noted, there are a number of factors that contribute to this, so sending 2,000 ICE and CBP agents rather than addressing any of those other factors makes this a disingenuous argument if made by the government, though I don't see it featuring in any of the DHS press releases. I suspect that if they said this, it would be legally actionable in that they are ignoring laws that have been made appropriately in order to get an outcome the DHS would prefer. This is law-breaking, regardless of which side does it.
"
bc: The left has occupied college campuses and aligned with terrorists using violence or threats thereof to intimidate Jewish students. Antisemitism has been mainstreamed.
"Jews will not replace us!" is a well-known chant on The Left, now?
Christianist schizophrenia w.r.t. "Jews" is pathological.
--TP
"
If I have said anything to you, or that would lead anyone here to think I would associate with anything like that, I sincerely apologize.
You didn't, bc. But it strikes me that you have not been exposed to the range of conservative voices that many of us have. It wouldn't be surprising, if so. It's easy to end up living in an information bubble, if one doesn't make an enormous effort not to do so. I see it all the time, and on many ideological sides, including the centrist, left and progressive.
"
bc - That Prairieland Detention Center case is definitely worth some examination. Bondi's people claim that 19 people so far are part of a "North Texas Antifa Cell," and are making much of the five guilty pleas.
Here are two articles about the action and the people who have been charged - from The Guardian and from The New Republic:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/texas-antifa-ice-detention-center
https://newrepublic.com/article/204190/texas-antifa-protest-case-doj-free-speech-test
...of the two, I find TNR's article to be better supported and more nuanced, but the Guardian has more personal details about some of the people involved that seem like they are worth consideration.
Just based on what I have read about the case, I'd say that two or three of the people involved were dangerous idiot who might have aspired to being an antifa cell. Another small number were friends who were trying to help an idiot friend who did stupid things in support of them, but who weren't part of any plot at the start, and the majority were protesters who got caught in bad circumstances and exercised poor judgment in not backing out when the idiots started talking big in the encrypted group chat.
Throw the dudes with guns in jail. Treat the vandals like vandals.
As for the rest, I'd need to see a lot more evidence of actual coordination and planning and association before I believed anything that law enforcement said about the majority of the people who showed up.
Thank the gods none of them had a sandwich, or who knows what charges might have been filed?
"
"russell, I am truly shocked that anyone, much less multiple rank and file conservatives, have said anything like that to you."
I appreciate your saying this. Truly.
None of it worries me that much, because nearly all of that has been online, and a lot of folks use the online world to basically vent.
I don't think I've ever run into it here on ObWi. I spent some time on RedState, where it was dead common, and I also hang on Facebook a lot (for my sins), where it is not quite as common, but not uncommon.
I really don't worry about it, it's just an observation. Some people like to talk the big talk.
"
I’ve been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain’t likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can’t wait to shoot me.
russell, I am truly shocked that anyone, much less multiple rank and file conservatives, have said anything like that to you. I'm actually dumfounded. I have never, ever heard anything like that directed at me (or anyone I know) and it must be truly painful and troubling to hear. I vehemently reject anyone who says anything like that, conservative or not. If I hadn't read so much of what you have written, and didn't know where your heart is (I do, and it's good), I frankly wouldn't believe you. But I do.
Honestly, I need to step back and let that sink in. It hurts me to hear that. I am so sorry. If I have said anything to you, or that would lead anyone here to think I would associate with anything like that, I sincerely apologize.
"
I would define the specific type of "dog pile" that I see here as follows: any conservative pushing back a bit or pointing out factors others may not have considered gets dumped on him or her not only having to respond to many community members here (which is expected), but also the burden of defending arguments that were never made (or at least were never intended to be made). More curiosity (on my part too) would be helpful.
lj: It’s quite spectacular to see a conservative feel that this process can be blown off when a new president comes in.
I'm not arguing that at all. I'm simply pointing out that if a particular jurisdiction refuses to cooperate on ICE detainer requests and someone is released, ICE has to go get them. Simple as that. My understanding is that ICE is in the field in Minneapolis more because of the lack of cooperation in Hennepin County. Michael Cain raises some good points on cooperation in general, but my understanding is those reasons are not why Hennepin County doesn't honor ICE detainers.
. . .if someone comes to ObWi and posts MAGA and Trump exculpating arguments (eg that the Minneapolis protesters will be largely to blame if as a result of their actions Trump invokes the Insurrection Act) . . .
I didn't argue that. If I was unclear, let me clear that up now. My point was that defunding ICE might give Trump an argument in favor of invoking the Act. I'm not advocating either the defunding or the invocation of the Act at all. Nor am I exculpating anyone. I have commented on how ICE can and should improve. I also think the actions of the protestors have bearing on the issue. If the protestors were just protesting instead of actively, intentionally, and in an organized way obstructing, there would be no argument for invocation of the Act. Is that "blaming" them? I don't think so. I'm just pointing out what they are doing.
wj: Gotcha on the clarification. I understand now.
Judging from the videos of those killings, I’d say a first degree (or whatever the term is in Minnesota) murder charge would be straightforward.
I don't think it is anywhere as straightforward as you might think. I could be wrong. To be clear: I'm not arguing the shootings were justified. What I have seen troubles me greatly. I'll await the full review.
"
"Minneapolis leaves ICE little choice."
Little choice to do what?
The example of Llangari does indeed sound messed up. I'm sure many such examples can be found. As can be many examples of situations where the operation of local PD's have been confounded by the actions of ICE and CBP.
A detainer is a non-binding request from immigration to a non-federal police force or prison to hold someone for 48 hours, so they can come and pick that person up.
As has been pointed out numerous times, immigration enforcement IS NOT the responsibility of local police. Further, having local police involved in immigration enforcement makes their work much more complicated in communities where there are a lot of immigrants. By "makes more complicated", I mean it undermines any relationship of trust between the immigrant community and the local police.
Who have to deal with that community, regardless of the immigration status of folks who are in it. This is not a trivial concern. People won't call the cops if they think it could result in their being deported. Especially under the current implementation of ICE/CBP operations, where people are seized and deported EVEN IF THEY HAVE LEGAL STANDING TO BE IN THE COUNTRY.
Happens every day.
So some communities decline to honor detainers. They have other things for their cops to do.
There is a simple solution for ICE / CBP, which is to get a judicial warrant. I'm sure it's a PITA to get a judge to sign off on every person they want to grab, but it provides a basic amount of oversight to their operations, and gives the local PD some guarantee that there actually is a basis for holding the person.
In any case, the idea that MN as a jurisdiction declines to honor detainers "leaves ICE little choice" but to literally invade Minneapolis, assault and shoot people for protesting (see also 1st A), violently break into people's homes without a warrant (see also 4th A), and generally create an environment of utter chaos, seems excessive.
To me.
I suspect other options - other choices - were available to them.
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A little more googling got me to the ACLU Minnesota page and there have been several cases where sheriffs have been sued because they extended imprisonment for ICE
https://www.aclu-mn.org/cases/jose-lopez-orellana-v-nobles-county/
https://www.aclu-mn.org/news/aclu-mn-cuts-deportation-pipeline-nobles-county/
https://www.aclu-mn.org/press-releases/jury-finds-anoka-county-jail-committed-false-imprisonment/
This seems more nuanced than bc's description.
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"I thought you might be focused on the homicidal crazies"
When the homicidal crazies on one side outnumber those on the other by multiples, yes, I find that worth noting.
They are "outliers" who the current POTUS has described as "beautiful people".
The left brought us the George Floyd riots, after a man was murdered in cold blood by a police officer on video.
The right brought us J6, after their candidate lost a legitimate election. They beat the crap out of Capitol police, leading to the death of some, and literally dropped trou and shit in the Capitol. We came extremely close to an honest-to-god violent autogolpe, at the instigation of the man who currently holds the office of POTUS. We came damned close to the murder of members of Congress.
And all of them were, to a person, subsequently pardoned. Every single one. Regardless of what they had done that day.
Show me anything on the left remotely comparable.
The right brought us the Bundy episode, where a bunch of self-appointed "militia" bros stood down federal officers at gunpoint. And then occupied and thoroughly trashed a public park facility.
Because Bundy didn't want to pay his grazing fees.
The left brought protests against Israel's Gaza invasion.
The right brought us Charlottesville, with bands of punk ass thugs brandishing torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". And a fine young right wing asshole driving his car into a crowd and killing a young woman. The right brought us the Tree Of Life shooting and the firebombing of Governor Shapiro's home.
The left brought us antifa, whoever the hell they are. The right brought us the KKK (still here), the Order, the Base, Patriot Front, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and a smattering of explicitly Nazi-aligned groups. The right brought us people holding office and positions of public responsibility who are on record as being "fans of Hitler".
And I'm leaving aside the number of times - the very large number of times - that I've been told that it's only a matter of time before People Like Me are subject to summary execution by the patriots on the right who own all the guns. I've been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain't likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can't wait to shoot me.
When "the left" gets out of hand, stuff gets broken. When the right gets out of hand, people get killed.
Hell yeah, the homicidal folks are an issue. And your side has most of them.
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Some counties and cities (e.g. Hennepin County and Minneapolis) were not. They release them into the public sphere rather than cooperate. Now the AG (Keith Ellison) doubled down, issuing an opinion that honoring detainers violates Minnesota law, even when there is an agreement with the feds (287(g) agreements).
1) The 287(g) agreements -- Hennepin County doesn't have one -- state explicitly that the state/local authority is responsible for the costs of jailing detainees until ICE gets around to picking them up. As I read the MOA document, that responsibility is open-ended: ICE does not guarantee how quickly they will come get the detainee. At least in recent history, ICE/CBP has refused to reimburse any local authorities, 287(g) agreement or not.
2) In some states there are explicit laws that forbid spending state/county moneys to enforce federal law. Arguably, holding someone beyond when they would have been otherwise released only because of an ICE/CBP detainer request violates such laws, at least w/o reimbursement.
3) SCOTUS case law says that the choice is up to the state/local authority. The feds can't require state/local authorities to spend state/local money enforcing federal law.
4) At least in my state, rural counties tend to have surplus jail cells and non-rural counties do not. Elsewhere, there are extreme cases. There was a huge fuss when it turned out LA County was releasing some famous people who got 30-day sentences after one night in jail. As it turned out, LA County was in the situation that to create space for people who would be sentenced today, each morning they released anyone who had less than 30 days left on their sentence. You didn't have to be famous for 30 days to mean overnight.
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What ICE is doing in Minneapolis (and other places to a lesser degree) is abhorrent. I really can't accept the idea that the difference between now and during Obama's terms is that he was "on the same team." That's absurd.
Maybe check out opinion polls. It's not just Democrats who are pissed about it. Minneapolis is being turned inside out. People don't want their home patrolled by out-of-control armed thugs, believe it or not.
On “But tell me what you really mean”
I'm really sorry to hear this and hope my flippancy with the article didn't cause any pain.
On “Moral insanity”
bc: I don’t know if anyone can be “simply murdered.” And your comment implies some sort of comparison between a citizen being wrongfully detained by ICE and a citizen being murdered by an illegal alien. I reject that.
Obviously I seriously unclear. Sorry about that. I was referring to those murdered by ICE. (Which, I agree, is definitely not comparable with unlawful detention by ICE ). Judging from the videos of those killings, I'd say a first degree (or whatever the term is in Minnesota) murder charge would be straightforward.
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This is a central issue. [that city and county jails were not releasing people in their custody to ICE for deportation]
It may come as a shock, but I disagree. Comparing state prisons (where a prisoner would go only after being convicted of a felony with a sentence of at least one year) with city and country jails holding not only people who would, after conviction, be moved to the DOC, but also people on lesser charges or people waiting for their cases to be adjudicated is apples and hand grenades.
Minnesota does have separation statutes (which are basically sanctuary policies) and I'm sure that part of the mix for DHS to challenge those policies. However, they are part of a legal framework, and challenging them by creating conditions on the ground that "heighten the contradictions" is something that I thought conservatives abhorred. I guess we all become what we hate.
Because ICE and DHS is trying to create a hostile environment [in order to reduce people coming illegally], they are creating a situation where city and country jails feel obliged to refuse them because ICE hopes to deport them before they have had a trial or because of what might be a minor offense. ICE is looking to deport any immigrant with any kind of criminal conviction, in an approach reminiscent of the Vietnam era "kill them all and let god sort them out." It's clear that the approach is arrest first and make them prove they are innocent. The procession of stories of people being shipped to other states or simply stopped, detained, and then released somewhere far out of the way is too common not to see.
And if they are made so uncomfortable that they leave, so much the better. And given that a lot of low and middle income people are a lost paycheck from banktruptcy, sending them out of state or forcing them to spend money they don't have is not a bug, it's a feature.
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2025/12/11/ice-jails-update/
has some discussion of these issues. Your argument seems to be local jails in Minnesota are more resistant to ICE and so force needs to be applied to them. But the reason they are more resistant is because of legislation that was drafted, debated, agreed to, and signed into law. It's quite spectacular to see a conservative feel that this process can be blown off when a new president comes in.
I've noted previously (in the discussion of Minaj Hasan's podcast) (and it pains me to do so again) that all the presidents except Reagan had versions of this 'hostile environment' (the phrase is a UK one, but it is basically same shit on a different day) So it's not that the administration is doing something totally new, but at some point, (to draw on more Marxist phraseology "change in quantity becomes a change in quality."
This comment is too long already, but I would also observe that it is not mere coincidence that this is occurring where George Floyd was murdered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
That murder created opposition to police overreach and probably helps to drive the reaction that you see.
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I've wondered about the difference between a dogpile and a pile-on, but from what I see today, they are roughly the same thing. I've previously assumed that if someone comes to ObWi and posts MAGA and Trump exculpating arguments (eg that the Minneapolis protesters will be largely to blame if as a result of their actions Trump invokes the Insurrection Act) that they are prepared to meet questioning, and refutation (an example of the latter is russell's upthread on rightwing v leftwing violence), but perhaps this isn't true? Maybe lj can explain how or to what extent this applies or doesn't....
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This is an interesting piece about the current incarnation of antifa, and their project to unmask ICE agents et al:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jan/30/antifa-unmasking-ice
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lj:
Thanks for recognizing the "dog pile" phenomena. I think I answered the choice of Minneapolis (vs. Minnesota writ large). And I suspect it being in Gov. Walz' back yard was a plus for Trump.
nous:
I lot there. I didn't ignore it. I'm not convinced Antifa has as little involvement as you say. I note that Antifa has targeted ICE:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-indicted-prairieland-shooting
I also think these protests are more astroturfed than you allow. There is some interesting info out there on funding. Time will tell.
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russell:
Basically, the predominance of the right wing in US political violence is a pretty well-established fact.
I thought you might be focusing on the homicidal crazies. IMO, you paint with way to broad a brush. While I acknowledge the point, they are outliers. The right roundly condemned Timothy McVeigh, for example. The crazies do not enjoy widespread support by either left or right. I almost put all of them in the same basket and I think it does a disservice to attribute the nut jobs and terrorists to the mainstream left or right.
The left commits far more assaults, property damage, riots more, etc in the name of political issues. Protests leaning into riot/violence is a familiar pattern since 2020. In addition, the left has blocked access to conservative speakers at college, often resorting to intimidation or violence. The left has occupied college campuses and aligned with terrorists using violence or threats thereof to intimidate Jewish students. Antisemitism has been mainstreamed. The cheers from mainstreamers on the left following the Trump assassination attempts and the Charlie Kirk shooting are troubling.
The right is far from perfect, but I note the pushback to, for example, Carlson’s interview with Fuentes and Kevin Roberts’ defense of that. We know we have some problems and are pushing back against it. Maybe I’m just not privy to the same thing happening on the left?
Hsh: It’s interesting that under the Obama administration there were so many deportations . . .
I think it is as simple as he’s a Democrat and his predecessor didn’t let in 10-20 million illegal immigrants in 4 years. Obama had more cooperation with local law enforcement. I agree that it is very interesting. Obama did some fancy foot work on the statistic, though, reporting turnaways at the border as deportations to look tougher that he was. The exact same guy in Minnesota running things now was decorated under Obama (Tom Homan). While the ALCU complained that the border patrol was “monstruous” under Obama and there were some protests, I think the pushback was muted simply because he was on the same team.
Not getting involved isn’t the same as obstructing (or even merely objecting).
True, but this isn’t going to the beach. If someone is subject to deportation and has a dangerous criminal record, why would an agency pledged to keeping the public safe not want that person removed? I do understand some petty crimes not being passed on. But I simply don’t get the more serious ones. Without cooperation, ICE has to go find the person. And it’s pretty hard to do that with what I’m seeing.
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Not getting involved isn't the same as obstructing (or even merely objecting). What I think wj means is that virtually no one is going to complain about ICE deporting dangerous people in the country illegally if ICE is doing it properly according to the law. None of that requires state and local agencies to assist in the effort.
I don't mind if my neighbor wants to go the beach, but that doesn't mean I'm giving him a towel.
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