State of the Discussion

The posts in play...

Giving Away the Store
(53)
+
A New Gilded Age
(53)
+
 

The comments...

russell
+ It seems to me that the Mets hat thing is a way of trying to experience goodwill and a human connection between groups who may [. . .]
Tony P.
+ Speaking of California, I'd like to hear what nous and wj have to say about Newsom's counter-gerrymander initiative. Any lurking Californians are especially welcome [. . .]
GftNC
+ So much fascinating info, thank you all! It's quite clear that my impression of the relevant southern states' educational standards was seriously out of [. . .]
Michael Cain
+ There's a thing in the education literature called "the Colorado Paradox". We are quite mediocre at getting resident kids through K-12, and into and through [. . .]
wj
+ Isn't what you are describing fallout from Prop 13, which capped property taxes, which was the mechanism that funded education? Prop 13 contributed, certainly. [. . .]
nous
+ If anyone is looking for a really thought provoking analysis of what has happened to higher education in the US with a focused look at [. . .]
liberal japonicus
+ These are the priorities of politicians on the left. Isn't what you are describing fallout from Prop 13, which capped property taxes, which was the [. . .]
wj
+ educational outcomes are not an especially blue state / red state thing. California doesn't do very well, Utah does. I wouldn't be surprised if a [. . .]
russell
+ I'd be interested to know whether this is a well known phenomenon The NAEP stats. To the degree that the states Brooks calls out have made good [. . .]
liberal japonicus
+ With Brooks, you have to take care with any evidence he offers. Yes, there is a Southern surge, but the states lauded (specifically Mississippi and [. . .]
GftNC
+ What you say about the reason for the class based segregation makes plenty of sense, russell. I must say, I was very surprised by [. . .]
russell
+ class in America. Yes, once upon a time there was a greater mix of higher-educated white collar professionals and non-college-grad working people in neighborhoods, schools, and [. . .]
GftNC

OT, so a bit of a pivot back to class, but in this case class in America. David Brooks, on America's New Segregation:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/14/opinion/trump-democrats-resistance-reform.html?unlocked_article_code=1.ek8.T4vb.EoYRJkuNSb_8&smid=url-share

nous

TACO - Trump Always Conciliates Oligarchs.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/aug/16/russia-jubilant-putin-alaska-summit-trump-ukraine
'Cos flattery gets you everywhere with Orange Chicken.

GftNC
+ wj, I think you underestimate the effect on the Russian people of seeing Putin treated like an honoured guest in America. However, neither Ubu [. . .]
Snarki, child of Loki

Comrade Krasnov met with his handler and got updated instructions.

Pro Bono
+ It's pretty bad. Trump has gone from "stop fighting or else" to "carry on, we'll have some peace talks". Letting Trump conduct international negotiations is like [. . .]
wj
+ I'm actually pleasantly surprised at the outcome. Far less bad than I had expected. Far less. I read some griping about Putin being "honored" [. . .]
GftNC

Utterly enraging, and completely unsurprising.

bobbyp
+ Putin left Trump virtually speechless....given Trump's gonoerrhea mouth, quite a feat if you ask me. I wonder if the KGB hacked the Epstein files. That [. . .]
Michael Cain
+ Re TonyP's comment, and a general thought about Alaskan resources... Those would be oil, natural gas, and coal for the most part. Russia already has [. . .]
Michael Cain
+ Spent some time off and on this week adding a first cut illumination correction to the toy software for processing images of documents. Original snapshot taken [. . .]
Tony P.
+ Yesterday I made this comment on Charlie Pierce's blog at Esquire, and I stand by it: The MAGAts who run Congress probably think that He, Trump [. . .]
GftNC
+ Side note on "smart" and "posh": Bryan Ferry is an interesting case. Working class, but attended that crucible of 60s upward (and other [. . .]
wj
+ Or, you could just go: pick the first of the remaining choices the first time, then the second the next, then the third (if there [. . .]
Snarki, child of Loki
+ wj: to make your strategy work properly it requires generating an actual random choice. PRO TIP: #2 pencils used for multiple-choice have 6 sides: using a [. . .]
wj
+ a kid who aces his college boards is probably pretty smart Or clever enough that you can get a pretty high, at least way above chance, [. . .]
russell
+ my perception of American English has both "crafty" and "cunning" as something that is intentionally deceptive When my step-son was born, my wife's Scottish then mother-in-law [. . .]
russell
+ In computer programming, it usually means things like really obscure code that exploits some odd aspect of the programming language I used to refer to that [. . .]
liberal japonicus

found this
https://blog.oup.com/2023/11/clever-hans-and-beyond/
possibly clever is related to clamber and climb, in the sense of being nimble.

nous
+ Michael - My use of clever doesn't necessitate intentional deception, it just makes room for it in the name of getting the job done - [. . .]
Pro Bono

I doubt that "clever" has got anything to do with "cleaver". It might be related to "claw".

Michael Cain

I would add that my perception of American English has both "crafty" and "cunning" as something that is intentionally deceptive, where "clever" is not.

liberal japonicus
+ I think both smart and clever are secondary terms, the base meaning of smart was painful or cutting (Ouch, that smarts!), while cleaver was probably [. . .]
Pro Bono
+ The distinction between "smart" and "clever" noted by US commentators doesn't, so far as I'm aware, exist in British English. I think "smart" here refers to [. . .]
GftNC
+ How fascinating, I have just looked up smart in the OED and the main usage for e.g. clothes seems to be "Attractively neat and stylish, [. . .]
Tony P.
+ British usages have long interested me. GftNC's observation that "smart" more or less equals "posh", for instance. I remember reading somewhere that, at one time [. . .]
GftNC
+ Interestingly, none of you seem to be talking about "intelligent" as opposed to the other two words. It's hard for me to get my [. . .]
nous
+ I tend to think of "smart" as being driven by knowledge and "clever" as being driven by wits. It's probably something like the Platonic difference [. . .]
bobbyp

wj,
Was Ted Kaczynski not both smart and clever? Just spit balling here.

wj
+ I think that the difference between "smart" and "clever" is mostly a matter of culture (if that's the right term). It's about what you [. . .]
Michael Cain
+ For me, the difference between "smart" and "clever" is mostly about scale. Smart operates on a larger scale than clever. The phrase "too clever for [. . .]
GftNC
+ They would rather be clever than smart, and they relished the idea of their cleverness winning over their customer's intelligence. Leaving the gilded age aside, I [. . .]
Michael Cain
+ I've never been to either the Hearst Castle or the Carnegie Mansion in NYC. Are they really as dismally dark as they look in the [. . .]
wj
+ sneering at someone's ignorance, particularly in the matter of taste, immediately marks one out as a member of the kind of "elites" that have understandably [. . .]
Snarki, child of Loki

Interesting to compare Trump's "style" with that at Hearst's Castle.

nous
+ The "Regional Car Dealership" thing is, to my way of thinking, less about class and more about a particular attitude towards salesmanship. In the decade between [. . .]