State of the Discussion

My campus is one of the campuses that had a pro-Palestinian encampment that was taken down with a massive law enforcement action. (I was not there. I had students and colleagues on either side whose perspectives and reasons for their involvement I can sympathize with. It was a complex situation. No one actually involved on either side wanted anyone else on campus to be physically threatened or harmed.)

I'm not going to get into a big post over this because bc has enough to respond to on other lines. I merely note that the public-at-large's understanding and descriptions of what was going on on campuses bear little resemblance to what it was actually like. The media accounts read like mock epics without any of the irony.

The actual drama and foment was tiny right up to the point where the helicopters and riot police showed up in overwhelming numbers and stormed in like they were dealing with a violent mob.

bc: The left has occupied college campuses and aligned with terrorists using violence or threats thereof to intimidate Jewish students. Antisemitism has been mainstreamed.

"Jews will not replace us!" is a well-known chant on The Left, now?
Christianist schizophrenia w.r.t. "Jews" is pathological.

--TP

bc - That Prairieland Detention Center case is definitely worth some examination. Bondi's people claim that 19 people so far are part of a "North Texas Antifa Cell," and are making much of the five guilty pleas.

Here are two articles about the action and the people who have been charged - from The Guardian and from The New Republic:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/texas-antifa-ice-detention-center

https://newrepublic.com/article/204190/texas-antifa-protest-case-doj-free-speech-test

...of the two, I find TNR's article to be better supported and more nuanced, but the Guardian has more personal details about some of the people involved that seem like they are worth consideration.

Just based on what I have read about the case, I'd say that two or three of the people involved were dangerous idiot who might have aspired to being an antifa cell. Another small number were friends who were trying to help an idiot friend who did stupid things in support of them, but who weren't part of any plot at the start, and the majority were protesters who got caught in bad circumstances and exercised poor judgment in not backing out when the idiots started talking big in the encrypted group chat.

Throw the dudes with guns in jail. Treat the vandals like vandals.

As for the rest, I'd need to see a lot more evidence of actual coordination and planning and association before I believed anything that law enforcement said about the majority of the people who showed up.

Thank the gods none of them had a sandwich, or who knows what charges might have been filed?

I’ve been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain’t likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can’t wait to shoot me.

russell, I am truly shocked that anyone, much less multiple rank and file conservatives, have said anything like that to you. I'm actually dumfounded. I have never, ever heard anything like that directed at me (or anyone I know) and it must be truly painful and troubling to hear. I vehemently reject anyone who says anything like that, conservative or not. If I hadn't read so much of what you have written, and didn't know where your heart is (I do, and it's good), I frankly wouldn't believe you. But I do.

Honestly, I need to step back and let that sink in. It hurts me to hear that. I am so sorry. If I have said anything to you, or that would lead anyone here to think I would associate with anything like that, I sincerely apologize.

"Minneapolis leaves ICE little choice."

Little choice to do what?

The example of Llangari does indeed sound messed up. I'm sure many such examples can be found. As can be many examples of situations where the operation of local PD's have been confounded by the actions of ICE and CBP.

A detainer is a non-binding request from immigration to a non-federal police force or prison to hold someone for 48 hours, so they can come and pick that person up.

As has been pointed out numerous times, immigration enforcement IS NOT the responsibility of local police. Further, having local police involved in immigration enforcement makes their work much more complicated in communities where there are a lot of immigrants. By "makes more complicated", I mean it undermines any relationship of trust between the immigrant community and the local police.

Who have to deal with that community, regardless of the immigration status of folks who are in it. This is not a trivial concern. People won't call the cops if they think it could result in their being deported. Especially under the current implementation of ICE/CBP operations, where people are seized and deported EVEN IF THEY HAVE LEGAL STANDING TO BE IN THE COUNTRY.

Happens every day.

So some communities decline to honor detainers. They have other things for their cops to do.

There is a simple solution for ICE / CBP, which is to get a judicial warrant. I'm sure it's a PITA to get a judge to sign off on every person they want to grab, but it provides a basic amount of oversight to their operations, and gives the local PD some guarantee that there actually is a basis for holding the person.

In any case, the idea that MN as a jurisdiction declines to honor detainers "leaves ICE little choice" but to literally invade Minneapolis, assault and shoot people for protesting (see also 1st A), violently break into people's homes without a warrant (see also 4th A), and generally create an environment of utter chaos, seems excessive.

To me.

I suspect other options - other choices - were available to them.

"I thought you might be focused on the homicidal crazies"

When the homicidal crazies on one side outnumber those on the other by multiples, yes, I find that worth noting.

They are "outliers" who the current POTUS has described as "beautiful people".

The left brought us the George Floyd riots, after a man was murdered in cold blood by a police officer on video.

The right brought us J6, after their candidate lost a legitimate election. They beat the crap out of Capitol police, leading to the death of some, and literally dropped trou and shit in the Capitol. We came extremely close to an honest-to-god violent autogolpe, at the instigation of the man who currently holds the office of POTUS. We came damned close to the murder of members of Congress.

And all of them were, to a person, subsequently pardoned. Every single one. Regardless of what they had done that day.

Show me anything on the left remotely comparable.

The right brought us the Bundy episode, where a bunch of self-appointed "militia" bros stood down federal officers at gunpoint. And then occupied and thoroughly trashed a public park facility.

Because Bundy didn't want to pay his grazing fees.

The left brought protests against Israel's Gaza invasion.

The right brought us Charlottesville, with bands of punk ass thugs brandishing torches and chanting "Jews will not replace us". And a fine young right wing asshole driving his car into a crowd and killing a young woman. The right brought us the Tree Of Life shooting and the firebombing of Governor Shapiro's home.

The left brought us antifa, whoever the hell they are. The right brought us the KKK (still here), the Order, the Base, Patriot Front, the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, and a smattering of explicitly Nazi-aligned groups. The right brought us people holding office and positions of public responsibility who are on record as being "fans of Hitler".

And I'm leaving aside the number of times - the very large number of times - that I've been told that it's only a matter of time before People Like Me are subject to summary execution by the patriots on the right who own all the guns. I've been hearing that for 25 years now. Not from fringe actors, from regular rank and file conservatives. It ain't likely to happen, but it kind of sucks to try to have a conversation with people who apparently can't wait to shoot me.

When "the left" gets out of hand, stuff gets broken. When the right gets out of hand, people get killed.

Hell yeah, the homicidal folks are an issue. And your side has most of them.

What ICE is doing in Minneapolis (and other places to a lesser degree) is abhorrent. I really can't accept the idea that the difference between now and during Obama's terms is that he was "on the same team." That's absurd.

Maybe check out opinion polls. It's not just Democrats who are pissed about it. Minneapolis is being turned inside out. People don't want their home patrolled by out-of-control armed thugs, believe it or not.

bc: I don’t know if anyone can be “simply murdered.” And your comment implies some sort of comparison between a citizen being wrongfully detained by ICE and a citizen being murdered by an illegal alien. I reject that.

Obviously I seriously unclear. Sorry about that. I was referring to those murdered by ICE. (Which, I agree, is definitely not comparable with unlawful detention by ICE ). Judging from the videos of those killings, I'd say a first degree (or whatever the term is in Minnesota) murder charge would be straightforward.

I've wondered about the difference between a dogpile and a pile-on, but from what I see today, they are roughly the same thing. I've previously assumed that if someone comes to ObWi and posts MAGA and Trump exculpating arguments (eg that the Minneapolis protesters will be largely to blame if as a result of their actions Trump invokes the Insurrection Act) that they are prepared to meet questioning, and refutation (an example of the latter is russell's upthread on rightwing v leftwing violence), but perhaps this isn't true? Maybe lj can explain how or to what extent this applies or doesn't....

lj:

Thanks for recognizing the "dog pile" phenomena. I think I answered the choice of Minneapolis (vs. Minnesota writ large). And I suspect it being in Gov. Walz' back yard was a plus for Trump.

nous:

I lot there. I didn't ignore it. I'm not convinced Antifa has as little involvement as you say. I note that Antifa has targeted ICE:

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ndtx/pr/antifa-cell-members-indicted-prairieland-shooting

I also think these protests are more astroturfed than you allow. There is some interesting info out there on funding. Time will tell.

Not getting involved isn't the same as obstructing (or even merely objecting). What I think wj means is that virtually no one is going to complain about ICE deporting dangerous people in the country illegally if ICE is doing it properly according to the law. None of that requires state and local agencies to assist in the effort.

I don't mind if my neighbor wants to go the beach, but that doesn't mean I'm giving him a towel.

wjca: 

Seriously? I doubt you will find a single official, in any sanctuary city or county or state, who would have any problem at all at all with those convicted of serious crimes being picked up and deported.

I am at a loss here.  This is a central issue. Minnesota DOC (state prisons) was cooperating and honoring ICE detainers once a criminal’s sentence is done. Some counties and cities (e.g. Hennepin County and Minneapolis) were not. They release them into the public sphere rather than cooperate. Now the AG (Keith Ellison) doubled down, issuing an opinion that honoring detainers violates Minnesota law, even when there is an agreement with the feds (287(g) agreements).  I’m not clear if the DOC’s cooperation will continue.  If I’m wrong, I’m all ears.  But Hennepin County ignored 2,000 detainers since Trump took office:

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/29/us/minnesota-ice-jails-immigration-arrests.html

The issue isn’t just convicted. Those that have been arrested are a problem too. I get that a city, county or state would want to see justice for the victims and prosecute illegal aliens who commit serious crimes. But there is no good reason an illegal alien credibly accused of serious crimes should be let loose without coordination with the feds, IMO. Look at German Llangari, the illegal alien that killed Victoria Harwell in the twin cities (vehicular homicide). ICE issued a detainer and Minneapolis released him twice, ignoring the detainer. He was a fugitive after the first release. ICE had to track him down without cooperation and did so and deported him.  If Minneapolis would cooperate, Minneapolis could have had its conviction, Llangari would have paid his price, and then he would have been deported. Minneapolis leaves ICE little choice.

** Far more than the number (citizens and non-citizens alike) who have simply been murdered.

I don’t know if anyone can be “simply murdered.”  And your comment implies some sort of comparison between a citizen being wrongfully detained by ICE and a citizen being murdered by an illegal alien. I reject that.  Both are bad, but murder is beyond horrible.
I read Pro Publica’s article on citizen detention/arrest several months ago.  I just glanced at it again. More than 170 detentions of citizens, 20 for more than a day in 2025. ICE arrested something like 350,000 in 2025. It’s not clear if the 150 detained were detained for any length of time. I assume that the bulk were detained during protests that went too far (e.g. laying hands on officers or throwing rocks at them). I think there have been 26 confirmed murders of citizens or legal residents by illegal aliens if we are going to compare.   I looked at several of the citizen detentions back then (the time of the article) and I found, again, situations that were not black and white. The most sympathetic (to me) was the young vet, George Retes. Likeable guy. Security guard at a marijuana farm. I saw the video. He drove right up to a line of ICE officers on the highway right when they were about to take action against a group of protesters who were obstructing them. I think I believe George that he was late to work, but be late and drive around!  George was not reasonable driving right up to them and  expecting ICE officers to call time out in a volatile situation to address his need to get to work on time.  I do have an issue with the lack of phone call and 3-day detention, however. Obviously.

If the writing is indeed on the wall, let's hope it's for the people we would all want to take down for the greatest good to the greatest number of people.

My thoughts are with you, cleek. Such a hard thing to go through with a loved one. Been through a few rounds of this myself (brother, cousins, my college love, ...). It always feels like having stumbled into emotional quicksand.

I’ll never get that toaster oven if you keep beating me to the quota.

I'm secretly trying to help you cut down on the Hot Pockets, man. You're a little out of control. You'll thank me later.

Well well, talking of undesirable criminals:

The Trump administration pledged to deport violent criminals—but instead, some of them have been on the payrolls of the federal government’s most aggressive agencies.

ICE and U.S. Customs and Border Protection employed at least 30 people with sexual and violent criminal histories in recent years, according to a report published Monday by the Ohio Immigrant Alliance with research from the Pacific Antifascist Collective.

At least 20 of those individuals committed offenses with underage victims, according to the report.
The 30 listed individuals have been charged with a wide litany of crimes, including gunpoint sexual assault, child sex trafficking, aggravated assault, robbery, rape, torture, kidnapping, sexual abuse of a minor, and possession and production of child sexual abuse materials.

Their transgressions occurred between 2015 and 2025, with the bulk of abuse happening within the last two years.

https://newrepublic.com/post/205719/ice-cbp-agents-alleged-sex-crimes-children

I don’t share your view on the balance of violence in the past years, and curious why you see it that way.  

I believe it's a matter of public record.

Per the NIJ (National Institute of Justice, a division of the DOJ):

 In fact, the number of far-right attacks continues to outpace all other types of terrorism and domestic violent extremism. Since 1990, far-right extremists have committed far more ideologically motivated homicides than far-left or radical Islamist extremists, including 227 events that took more than 520 lives.1 In this same period, far-left extremists committed 42 ideologically motivated attacks that took 78 lives

Not that it's a contest, but the imbalance is striking.

That report, BTW, was removed from the DOJ website after the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Make of that what you will.

Here's an archive of it:
https://www.scribd.com/document/918595498/Wayback-Machine-NIJ-Issue-285-44

The removal is discussed here:
https://www.congress.gov/119/meeting/house/118612/documents/HHRG-119-JU00-20250917-SD057-U57.pdf

And this from PBS, assuming you will consider them a reliable source:

Based on government and independent analyses, right-wing extremist violence has been responsible for the overwhelming majority of fatalities, amounting to approximately 75% to 80% of U.S. domestic terrorism deaths since 2001.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/right-wing-extremist-violence-is-more-frequent-and-deadly-than-left-wing-violence-data-shows

From the Center for Strategic and International Studies, the historical pattern changed in 2025, with left-wing incidents outnumbering right-wing for the first time in recent memory. If you look at the numbers cited, that is mostly due to the dramatically lower number of right-wing incidents last year. Compared to previous years, the left-wing attacks grew from something like 2 to 5, Right wing attacks dropped from something like 30 to 1, where that 1 was the assassination and attempted assassination of MN elected officials.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states

Basically, the predominance of the right wing in US political violence is a pretty well established fact.

I find the organized and calculated obstruction tactics coupled with the apparent involvement of socialist organizations and other far left groups (and maybe even local politicians) troubling because it tends to indicate there is much more going on here than opposition to immigration policy.

Unless I'm mistaken, "obstruction" in Minneapolis has consisted of using vehicles to get in the way of ICE/CBP vehicles, and making noise to alert people of the presence of ICE/CBP. That arguably interferes with the ability of the federal agents to move easily around Minneapolis and to capture people by surprise.

They also make a lot of noise outside of hotels where ICE/CBP people are staying, which I'm sure sucks for them.

They've also thrown snowballs at ICE/CBP agents.

There are some cases of throwing fireworks at them, which strikes me as an incredibly stupid exercise in poking the bear.

In general, they are doing their best to make the federal agents feel as unwelcome as they possibly can, without rising to physical violence toward them.

You are correct, there is much more going on than opposition to immigration policy. It is opposition to heavily armed and armored federal agents arriving in numbers that are multiples of civilian public safety officers, grabbing people off the street, from their cars, and from their homes on the flimsiest pretexts (skin color, accent) and assaulting people who are legally following and/or filming them as they go about their work.

None of what ICE and CBP are doing in Minneapolis and elsewhere is necessary for them to carry out their actual duty, which is to execute removal orders, whether judicial or of their own authoring. None of it.

The people they are grabbing are generally unarmed and pose no threat to anyone. They are line cooks, teachers, daycare providers, landscaping and trade laborers, etc. Most of the people - by far - who are being grabbed have no criminal history whatsoever.

The level of violence that ICE and CBP are bringing into American cities is insane, and utterly unnecessary for the work they are supposed to be doing.

Which makes me, in turn, think there is much more going on here than immigration policiy.

One thing that the right consistently misconstrues/misrepresents about the left is the nature of the relationship between antifa, socialist activists, and the protesters as a whole.

Antifa, as much as they exist as organized groups, are small cells that don't coordinate with anyone else. They don't want contact. They are afraid that any contact and coordination will lead to fed infiltration. They are a miniscule presence within these protests, and they show up uninvited.

The only real relationship between the socialist activists and the majority of the protesters comes through the socialist groups offering tactical training for the protesters - all the whistles and communication things - as an open source information practice. They aren't leading things in the sense of providing ideology and direction, they are sharing their practical experience about how, safely and effectively, to stand up to militarized federal agents who are violating the constitution.

The vast majority of the people engaging in the training are not activists or socialists, and have no interest in the ideology of the people who put together the training. All they want to know is how to prevent their neighbors from being snatched and sent to a government oubliette or dumped in a foreign country with no due process. Oh, and how to deal with the indiscriminate use of teargas and CS against them and their neighbors, and how to render aid to people being shot with less lethal rounds and beaten with batons - often in direct violation of the training and use of force guidelines.

Finally, consider this: Obama removed a whole lot of people during his presidency and went after traffickers and criminals with low-intensity, targeted operations even in sanctuary cities. No one was showing up to disrupt that because under Obama the agents were operating within normal enforcement protocols. Socialist activists were around and protesting during his time in office too (I know a surprising number through my work with my union and heard about a lot of this directly from them).

Those Minnesotans are not a bunch of radical socialists attempting to overthrow federal order, they are scared and angry midwesterners who are pissed off because the President has sent in masked, militarized enforcers to grab their neighbors without probable cause or due process. They just want things to go back to the way they were, and for ICE and CBP to go back to low-intensity work against actual threats to public safety.

It's interesting that under the Obama administration there were so many deportations - decried by many on the left, mind you - but without ICE roaming the streets grabbing people without cause and without the number of mass protests we've been seeing not just in Minneapolis but in cities all over the country. I don't recall citizens being detained regularly (or being executed).

Maybe it's the tactics and the hiring of 10K agents in an extremely short amount of time. Maybe it's the militarization of the agents who appear to be going to war on US soil and are exceedingly aggressive and hostile.

George Floyd protests happen all over the country in large cities and small towns. Millions of people participated. A vanishingly small number of them were affiliated with Antifa. Yes, people rioted, looted, and vandalized - far, far fewer than than those who protested peacefully.

But why Minneapolis of all places for this swarm?

it tends to indicate there is much more going on here than opposition to immigration policy

The ICE presence seems to me to be very little to do with "immigration policy", given the seizing and detention of such an amazing number of US citizens, or people otherwise legally engaged in the system, not to mention the astonishing paucity of criminal records or convictions despite the rhetoric about "criminal illegal immigrants".

bc, do you think it is acceptable for ICE to base their actions on the colour of people's skin, or their accents? And do you think that the number of people on the streets, protecting their neighbours and otherwise monitoring and recording what is happening, demonstrates an "apparent involvement of socialist organizations and other far left groups"? Or do you think that perhaps this might be like the White House's constant reference to "radical left lunatics" to describe anyone who disagrees with their actions? And what is your view, given the vexed question of States' rights, of the fact that the states in question have objected to the deployment, and are pretty much all blue states? Does this not raise a question in your mind about whether the issue is indeed "immigration policy", or perhaps something else?

> The violence from the “protestors” is intended, IMO, to provoke.

sure. as is ICE's presence. this is a political issue.

Trump and the whole GOP would absolutely love it if an ICE trooper was hurt. it would fit their "violent left" narrative and they would run the footage 24/7.

but, simple question: residents protesting or the amateur-hour thugs from ICE : who's city is it? well, ICE claims it's "their fucking city". seems like one side has it all wrong.

russell: I appreciate your response. Sorry for my delayed response (day job). I find myself aligned with your manifesto. Thanks for sharing.

I understood "freaks" to refer to the rank and file, not their leaders. I see I was wrong. I shouldn't assume.  I understand calling political figures freaks, simply because they are public targets.  They signed up for it.  

My view on ICE is tempered by what ICE is dealing with in the streets.
I find the organized and calculated obstruction tactics coupled with the apparent involvement of socialist organizations and other far left groups (and maybe even local politicians) troubling because it tends to indicate there is much more going on here than opposition to immigration policy. The violence from the "protestors" is intended, IMO, to provoke. Yes, ICE shouldn't take the bait and they sometimes do and that is a problem. I see the "protests" at least in part a continuation of the Antifa-led protests in 2020 that really weren’t much about George Floyd after the first several days. I don’t share your view on the balance of violence in the past years, and curious why you see it that way.  

Tony P.:    I have issues with the 4th Amendment violations, quotas, etc.  The shootings are tragic.  The organized obstruction and doxxing makes a dangerous job that much harder. That’s why I don’t see things as black and white.  I have no problem with protest. This is beyond protest for the most part.  

How to improve? I’d make body cameras and badge numbers mandatory for accountability purposes for starters.  There are some situations where going undercover or safety mandate something else, but make it the exception.  And more de-escalation training.  My overall impression is that what I see appears less professional in a lot of situations than what I see with well-trained police forces, but I’m seeing it through the lens of protestors actively obstructing. ICE’s mission isn’t really crowd control (and it shows). Contrast that with the Maple Grove PD’s response when the rioters went after Greg Bovino’s hotel. But note how many officers it took to control those protestors.

I would also encourage local cooperation, something that has been actively discouraged by Walz and Frey.  St. Paul Police Fed. Pres. Mark Ross called for local cooperation, even claiming it would have prevented the shooting deaths:  https://nypost.com/2026/01/28/us-news/police-union-head-slams-minn-as-gov-walz-agrees-to-have-top-cop-work-with-border-czar/