In the hope that I am done going into moderation, and further to wonkie's point about Goebbels, this is from the NYT in 1939, under the headline Goebbels Ends Careers of Five 'Aryan' Actors Who Made Witticisms About the Nazi Regime:
Aha, out of the gulag! It only took about 40 minutes for both to come out.
I know almost nobody who disagrees with me about Trump, so that (luckily) doesn't arise. The exception is someone fiercely clever who has been my close friend since we were 11, and she is a tribal Republican who actually voted for Trump 3 times. I don't talk to her about it, because a) I can't bear to hear what she might say, b) I love her, and also I am worried about her cognitive decline (starting long before Trump). Now let's see if it's the gulag again...
2025-09-17 21:28:49
And again, for no reason I can make out, my comment is "awaiting moderation".
2025-09-17 21:28:01
wonkie, this is a subject which I spend a lot of time thinking about. For me, it matters most with personal friends (because I don't really have a social media presence), and luckily most of mine are roughly on the same page as me, at least about purely political issues. One exception is the Israel/Gaza situation, where someone I have known since she was a child, and whose family was and is deeply entwined with mine, is still (or was still a month or so ago) reflexively defending Israel's actions in Gaza, although not in the West Bank. She was deeply upset by my attitude and my arguments, and although I kept (civilly) making them for a while (because she is a) bright, b) a liberal/lefty, and c) generally a really good person), I stopped because I do not want her to disappear from my life or that of my family. So we have a truce, and don't discuss it. The only other friends I know who were supporting Israel wholeheartedly when we last discussed it several months ago, are non-Jewish (unlike the other friend) and rather rightwing. It will be interesting next time we talk about it to see if their attitude has changed at all in the meanwhile. The only thing which gave them pause in our last discussion was my point that Israel's actions in Gaza have done more damage to Israel than anything I have ever seen in my lifetime.
But on the subject of what kind of effect this sort of extreme argument is having on the participants, I am really worried. I have seen more and more people (including people with whom I agree) becoming more extreme and unempathetic, insulting, even cruel, in their arguments, the longer these kind of things go on. It seems to me a sort of radicalisation: not entirely surprising I suppose in people who have been defined by others in hateful ways, threatened over long periods with e.g physical violence, rape, murder etc because of their opinions, or have seen people they respect so threatened. As well as certain public figures, I have seen this "radicalisation" happen even with a few people to whom I am very close. Personally, I spend a lot of time and effort trying to make sure this doesn't happen to me - I don't want my opinion to change for any reason other than exposure to new information, or other rational (as opposed to emotional) evolution. I hope I have been reasonably successful, but it is a worry.
And, of course, on a societal level, it is a disaster. We are rapidly becoming a world in which it is impossible to have rational discussions and disagreements on many important subjects. I feel very gloomy about it.
In the hope that I am done going into moderation, and further to wonkie's point about Goebbels, this is from the NYT in 1939, under the headline Goebbels Ends Careers of Five 'Aryan' Actors Who Made Witticisms About the Nazi Regime:
https://www.nytimes.com/1939/02/04/archives/goebbels-ends-careers-of-five-aryan-actors-who-made-witticisms.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nE8.IExY.Y2cofB8EzqsL&smid=url-share
Aha, out of the gulag! It only took about 40 minutes for both to come out.
I know almost nobody who disagrees with me about Trump, so that (luckily) doesn't arise. The exception is someone fiercely clever who has been my close friend since we were 11, and she is a tribal Republican who actually voted for Trump 3 times. I don't talk to her about it, because a) I can't bear to hear what she might say, b) I love her, and also I am worried about her cognitive decline (starting long before Trump). Now let's see if it's the gulag again...
And again, for no reason I can make out, my comment is "awaiting moderation".
wonkie, this is a subject which I spend a lot of time thinking about. For me, it matters most with personal friends (because I don't really have a social media presence), and luckily most of mine are roughly on the same page as me, at least about purely political issues. One exception is the Israel/Gaza situation, where someone I have known since she was a child, and whose family was and is deeply entwined with mine, is still (or was still a month or so ago) reflexively defending Israel's actions in Gaza, although not in the West Bank. She was deeply upset by my attitude and my arguments, and although I kept (civilly) making them for a while (because she is a) bright, b) a liberal/lefty, and c) generally a really good person), I stopped because I do not want her to disappear from my life or that of my family. So we have a truce, and don't discuss it. The only other friends I know who were supporting Israel wholeheartedly when we last discussed it several months ago, are non-Jewish (unlike the other friend) and rather rightwing. It will be interesting next time we talk about it to see if their attitude has changed at all in the meanwhile. The only thing which gave them pause in our last discussion was my point that Israel's actions in Gaza have done more damage to Israel than anything I have ever seen in my lifetime.
But on the subject of what kind of effect this sort of extreme argument is having on the participants, I am really worried. I have seen more and more people (including people with whom I agree) becoming more extreme and unempathetic, insulting, even cruel, in their arguments, the longer these kind of things go on. It seems to me a sort of radicalisation: not entirely surprising I suppose in people who have been defined by others in hateful ways, threatened over long periods with e.g physical violence, rape, murder etc because of their opinions, or have seen people they respect so threatened. As well as certain public figures, I have seen this "radicalisation" happen even with a few people to whom I am very close. Personally, I spend a lot of time and effort trying to make sure this doesn't happen to me - I don't want my opinion to change for any reason other than exposure to new information, or other rational (as opposed to emotional) evolution. I hope I have been reasonably successful, but it is a worry.
And, of course, on a societal level, it is a disaster. We are rapidly becoming a world in which it is impossible to have rational discussions and disagreements on many important subjects. I feel very gloomy about it.