Thanks Hartmut, more things to think about. I had a section about how the Trojans might be thought of as equivalent to the 'brown people' that Donald referred to in his comment and the way Neoptolemos kills Priam with his own grandchild is probably something that ICE aspires to. We zoom in on the Greeks and we see them as humans and individuals, but we pull back and we see a seething mass of resentment ready to loose all manner of torture and suffering.
That notion of the Trojans as minorities is also explored in KAOS, a TV series that unfortunately was not renewed. The allusions the story makes to Greek myth are outstanding.
2 days ago
If you haven't, check out Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey and the Iliad.
A fun quote from the review that gets us to questions of nobility and truthfulness
“He failed to keep them safe,” writes Wilson. “He could not save them from disaster,” is Robert Fagles’ version for Penguin. Chapman has: “But so their fates he could not overcome.” The Greek? “All’ oud’ hos hetairous erruasato” – “but even so he did not protect his companions”. Whereas male translations have a habit, perhaps quite unconsciously, of letting Odysseus off the hook (he tried his best! He just couldn’t manage it!), Wilson is more attentive to the poem’s foldedness, its complexity.
I also may have mentioned this, but if I haven't, you might be interested in the South African translation of the Iliad
https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2013/2013.03.06/
2 days ago
Does anyone in Greek myths have a noble character as we would define it? Brad DeLong, long ago, noted that he'd rather have Odysseus as his buddy in a foxhole rather than Achilles, as Achilles only wants kleos, whereas Odysseus, because he has metis, would craft a plan to get everyone out of whatever jam they are in. (with Nolan's film and the Ralph Fiennes movie, the Odyssean pov seems to be ascendent, though I've also noted that people can be too clever) One thing I like about thinking about Greek myths is that what they value and deprecate are often at odds with what we do.
Philoctetes certainly doesn't have any noble traits (those are assigned to Neoptolemus, who was coming fresh to the battlefield) but is identified with a noble act, lighting Hercules funeral pyre when no one else would, which is why he got the bow and arrow. (a quick check shows that another thread has his father, Poeus, lighting the pyre, which then makes the bow and arrows is a tainted inheritance). But in his implacable hatred of those who got him in his situation, I'm really seeing where he is coming from.
Thanks Hartmut, more things to think about. I had a section about how the Trojans might be thought of as equivalent to the 'brown people' that Donald referred to in his comment and the way Neoptolemos kills Priam with his own grandchild is probably something that ICE aspires to. We zoom in on the Greeks and we see them as humans and individuals, but we pull back and we see a seething mass of resentment ready to loose all manner of torture and suffering.
That notion of the Trojans as minorities is also explored in KAOS, a TV series that unfortunately was not renewed. The allusions the story makes to Greek myth are outstanding.
If you haven't, check out Emily Wilson's translation of the Odyssey and the Iliad.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/dec/08/the-odyssey-translated-emily-wilson-review
A fun quote from the review that gets us to questions of nobility and truthfulness
“He failed to keep them safe,” writes Wilson. “He could not save them from disaster,” is Robert Fagles’ version for Penguin. Chapman has: “But so their fates he could not overcome.” The Greek? “All’ oud’ hos hetairous erruasato” – “but even so he did not protect his companions”. Whereas male translations have a habit, perhaps quite unconsciously, of letting Odysseus off the hook (he tried his best! He just couldn’t manage it!), Wilson is more attentive to the poem’s foldedness, its complexity.
I also may have mentioned this, but if I haven't, you might be interested in the South African translation of the Iliad
https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2013/2013.03.06/
Does anyone in Greek myths have a noble character as we would define it? Brad DeLong, long ago, noted that he'd rather have Odysseus as his buddy in a foxhole rather than Achilles, as Achilles only wants kleos, whereas Odysseus, because he has metis, would craft a plan to get everyone out of whatever jam they are in. (with Nolan's film and the Ralph Fiennes movie, the Odyssean pov seems to be ascendent, though I've also noted that people can be too clever) One thing I like about thinking about Greek myths is that what they value and deprecate are often at odds with what we do.
Philoctetes certainly doesn't have any noble traits (those are assigned to Neoptolemus, who was coming fresh to the battlefield) but is identified with a noble act, lighting Hercules funeral pyre when no one else would, which is why he got the bow and arrow. (a quick check shows that another thread has his father, Poeus, lighting the pyre, which then makes the bow and arrows is a tainted inheritance). But in his implacable hatred of those who got him in his situation, I'm really seeing where he is coming from.