Looked it up again. The Orestes-Neoptolemos affair is ambiguous in the sources. Either Hermione was the (unwilling) bride of Neoptolemos and Orestes tried to get her for himself (and slew Neoptolemos) or she was Orestes' fiancee, Neoptolemos tried to rape her and Orestes slew him for that. Again, no one asked the girl about her opinion.
Btw, here's the vase painting of Neoptolemos beating Priamos to death with the body of Priamos' grandson Astyanax: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Amphora_death_Priam_Louvre_F222.jpg
There are other stories with Odysseus either killing Astyanax or agitating for it in order to prevent him from growing up and taking revenge (Neoptolemos often involved though).
2 days ago
Actually reading both epics does not leave much sympathy for any of the male 'heroes'*. I wonder in what way Odysseus would explain his 1 year with Kirke and 7 years with Kalypso to his wife (Homer being very explicit about those relationships being sexual and the latter ending with the 7-years-itch). And other sources have Odysseus killed by his son with Kirke who then marries Penelope while his legitimate son Telemachos marries Kirke in turn.
In the Iliad Odysseus is the most active in suppressing protests from the common soldiers. Interestingly, in non-Platonic sources about the trial of Socrates, the philosopher is accused of citing these verses in his agitation against Athenian democracy.
He is, in some sources, also the main culprit in maltreating the women of Troy (and together with Neoptolemos organizes the sacrifice of Polyxena to the spirit of Achilles).
Orestes tries to justify the murder of his mother with the theory that sons are not blood related to their mothers (them being only seed vessels) and later murders Neoptolemos to steal his wife. Neoptolemos beats Priamos to death at the sanctuary altar with the body of Astyanax, his grandchild and son of Hektor (there are vase paintings of the scene).
Authors of post-antiquity had their work cut out to sanitize all of that.
What I find telling is that the Romans (with very few exceptions**) vilify Odysseus. Not for the deeds we find objectionable to-day but for using his brains instead of raw violence as a proper hero would do.
*Medea (for the female side) being an interesting case of developing from a Greek victim in the oldest to a foreign villain in the younger sources. Jason is an a-hole in all ancient sources I know.
**Apuleius being one in his 'the god of Socrates'
2 days ago
The play dates from the Peloponnesian war (after the catastrophe of the Sicilian expedition that had decimated the Athenian stock of young men) and a period of political turmoil in Athens (violent conflicts between oligarchs and democrats).
It is almost certain that it was read politically even then. Raison d'etat against the individual liberty, the youth manipulated by a deceitful and incompetent leadership etc.
Looked it up again. The Orestes-Neoptolemos affair is ambiguous in the sources. Either Hermione was the (unwilling) bride of Neoptolemos and Orestes tried to get her for himself (and slew Neoptolemos) or she was Orestes' fiancee, Neoptolemos tried to rape her and Orestes slew him for that. Again, no one asked the girl about her opinion.
Btw, here's the vase painting of Neoptolemos beating Priamos to death with the body of Priamos' grandson Astyanax: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datei:Amphora_death_Priam_Louvre_F222.jpg
There are other stories with Odysseus either killing Astyanax or agitating for it in order to prevent him from growing up and taking revenge (Neoptolemos often involved though).
Actually reading both epics does not leave much sympathy for any of the male 'heroes'*. I wonder in what way Odysseus would explain his 1 year with Kirke and 7 years with Kalypso to his wife (Homer being very explicit about those relationships being sexual and the latter ending with the 7-years-itch). And other sources have Odysseus killed by his son with Kirke who then marries Penelope while his legitimate son Telemachos marries Kirke in turn.
In the Iliad Odysseus is the most active in suppressing protests from the common soldiers. Interestingly, in non-Platonic sources about the trial of Socrates, the philosopher is accused of citing these verses in his agitation against Athenian democracy.
He is, in some sources, also the main culprit in maltreating the women of Troy (and together with Neoptolemos organizes the sacrifice of Polyxena to the spirit of Achilles).
Orestes tries to justify the murder of his mother with the theory that sons are not blood related to their mothers (them being only seed vessels) and later murders Neoptolemos to steal his wife. Neoptolemos beats Priamos to death at the sanctuary altar with the body of Astyanax, his grandchild and son of Hektor (there are vase paintings of the scene).
Authors of post-antiquity had their work cut out to sanitize all of that.
What I find telling is that the Romans (with very few exceptions**) vilify Odysseus. Not for the deeds we find objectionable to-day but for using his brains instead of raw violence as a proper hero would do.
*Medea (for the female side) being an interesting case of developing from a Greek victim in the oldest to a foreign villain in the younger sources. Jason is an a-hole in all ancient sources I know.
**Apuleius being one in his 'the god of Socrates'
The play dates from the Peloponnesian war (after the catastrophe of the Sicilian expedition that had decimated the Athenian stock of young men) and a period of political turmoil in Athens (violent conflicts between oligarchs and democrats).
It is almost certain that it was read politically even then. Raison d'etat against the individual liberty, the youth manipulated by a deceitful and incompetent leadership etc.