>I remember him saying that Trump was ‘the most consequential president in our lifetime’
i've been thinking the same thing.
if you disregard the direction of the things he's done and only focus on their magnitude, it's hard to say he hasn't changed far more than anyone since FDR. the problem is that all he's done is negative.
also, re Tacitus the blogger - he's a reason a few of us are here. back in the mists, his blog was a place where people could try to seriously discuss things (the Iraq invasion being the primary thing). and a lot of the early ObWi crowd were also Tacitus regulars. there was even interlinking. some of us followed those regulars from Tacitus to ObWi. for a while, Travino seemed like one of the sane Republicans. he grew out of it.
I understand that one can’t blame the original Tacitus for the sins of the nouveau Tacman, but I have to wonder about the connection in Brooks’ mind.
LOL, classic!
As requested, I went looking for Jamelle Bouie's response, but it's not out yet, obvs.
as you note, Brooks is certainly not a favorite of mine.
Nor of russell's, and probably various others here. It's interesting, but I realise I don't really have favourites. I read the arguments of the various commentators, and sometimes I think they're worthwhile, and sometimes not. Quite frequently, people with whom I've deeply disagreed on other subjects say things I think are worth considering, or a hopeful sign from commentators who might influence a constituency with whom I very much disagree (like David Frum), and I take some comfort in that.
I guess, quite properly, everybody's mileage varies....
Thanks for the David Brooks link, though let me rag on it a bit. I wish he had spent a little less time the previous 2 years claiming that everyone who was pointing out the direction this clown car was rolling had their hair on fire and a little more time putting up some resistance, even if only by observing it in a column or at a speaking event. I remember him saying that Trump was 'the most consequential president in our lifetime', which sounds a lot like the sentence in the reference letter "When you come to know him as we know him, you will appreciate him as we appreciate him."
The column has Brooks going back to Tacitus, but it would have been nice if he invoked Tacitus to discuss some other points of the MAGA movement, perhaps noting after one of those circle jerk cabinet meetings that 'Flatterers are the worst kind of enemies' or, in considering the whole cult of MAGA "In their ignorance they called it culture, when it was part of their enslavement."
Brooks has spent a lot of time claiming that the judiciary would ultimately function to stop Trump and that what people should do is stay at their desks. He's still playing the same games when he says
And no, I don’t think America is headed toward anything like a Rome-style collapse. Our institutions are too strong, and our people, deep down, still have the same democratic values.
I think in response to the line about how everyone needed to stay at their desks, Jamelle Bouie said that this is really hard when the desk is being sold for parts. (I hope you can post Bouie's reply to Brooks, he's weighed in a few times in response, I think, and I'm sure that it will be worth reading)
Battle hardened vets on the blog can also note that Tacitus was the nom de blog of one Josh Trevino (the tilde over the n came later), who got into some problems with editorials on Malaysian politics, but, like a bad penny, pops up again and again. I understand that one can't blame the original Tacitus for the sins of the nouveau Tacman, but I have to wonder about the connection in Brooks' mind. The Tacitus quote "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" embodies one notion that has gotten us into this mess, so a little reflection might be in order from Brooks, though that is not his strong suit.
Again, apologies for ragging on the article, but as you note, Brooks is certainly not a favorite of mine.
Sir Rod Stewart released a video statement about Trump's diss of UK soldiers.
That Tacticus quote is right on the money-which is why the actions in Portland and Minneapolis are so important and inspiring. There's no giving in to cynicism there and a strong assertion of the moral values the dictator is trying to destroy.
OK, on lj's formulation that this thread is about American reaction (as opposed to foreign reaction) to Trump, this is David Brooks in today's NYT. I know he is not any kind of favourite on ObWi, but since it is decades since I read Tacitus I was very struck by this:
Tacitus was especially good at describing the effect the tyrant has on the people around him. When the tyrant first takes power, there is a “rush into servitude” as great swarms of sycophants suck up to the great man. The flattery must forever escalate and grow more fawning, until every follower’s dignity is shorn away. Then comes what you might call the disappearance of the good, as morally healthy people lie low in order to survive. Meanwhile, the whole society tends to be anesthetized. The relentless flow of appalling events eventually overloads the nervous system; the rising tide of brutality, which once seemed shocking, comes to seem unremarkable.
As the disease of tyranny progresses, citizens may eventually lose the habits of democracy — the art of persuasion and compromise, interpersonal trust, an intolerance for corruption, the spirit of freedom, the ethic of moderation. “It is easier to crush men’s spirits and their enthusiasm than to revive them,” Tacitus wrote.
I suppose that it all bleeds together, but my thought was that this thread might focus on foreign reaction to Trump, while the other post was about the mental gymnastics the people who support Trump engage in.
I keep thinking of it as Trump's Bored of Peace. Because he certainly does seem to be. Who needs peace, as long as he's got a supply of "losers" (whether ICE thugs or the US military) to do the fighting and dying for him.
Sorry, I didn't know we were discussing the very same thing on two threads, this and the Moral Insanity one! I must say, I think the name of that one is perfectly appropriate.
Yup. Four educational deferments, and eventually one bone spur exemption. But it's OK, we do know that his own personal Vietnam was risking STIs, and that was the "front line" he bravely risked...
I’m sure you can imagine, even if you haven’t seen them, the responses ricocheting around the world from former servicemen to Trump’s and Hegseth’s comments.
All the worse given tRump's phantom bone spurs. The f**king gall...
That poem is exactly right. In terms of civic involvement, sociopathy is the norm with R base voters, combined with self-aggrandizement and self-pity. I wonder if there has always been a percentage of the population that is like this or is or were they created by Faux and the rest of the hate propaganda network? Or always there, but more apparent now, give the decades Republicans have spent encouraging this mindset?
Meanwhile, talking of Moral Insanity, this is an extract from The Critic. I don't agree with the entirety of the piece (fairly reflexively anti-Europe), but you can't disagree with this:
Trump’s latest insult was to sneer that non-American troops who served in Afghanistan “stayed a little back”. This ignobly underplays the sacrifices of thousands of coalition troops — including those of 457 Britons who died — and is being received with outrage online. Actually, I am not sure I have ever seen such bipartisan condemnation.
Something else that Trump said seemed almost worse, though. “We’ve never needed them,” he said, dismissively, of his NATO allies. Now, I actually agree that the US didn’t “need” NATO support in 2001. It didn’t need to embark on a foolish and destructive war in Afghanistan, which led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people before the Taliban simply took control again. But it certainly claimed to need a “worldwide coalition”. So, if anything, Trump should be apologetic rather than dismissive. He is sneering at people for not sacrificing enough for the sake of American hubris.
Given that, for example, coalition casualties in Afghanistan in response to 9/11 included:
USA 7.96 deaths per million of population Denmark 7.82 deaths per million of population
UK 7.25 deaths per million of population
I'm sure you can imagine, even if you haven't seen them, the responses ricocheting around the world from former servicemen to Trump's and Hegseth's comments. One I've just seen from someone called Andrew Fox, alongside a picture of a chestful of medals, says
I always thought it was super nice of the Americans to give me that badge for “staying a little off” from the front lines.
It’s nice to be appreciated!
American friends, especially my former brothers in arms - I’m sorry your President shames you daily. You deserve better.
>What kind of people are they trying to appeal to?
the same kind of insecure oafs who think mocking people who aren't just like them improves their lives, who think rolling coal is a good response to people who are just trying to ride a bike, who think life-size decals of a tied-up Biden make their trucks cool, who think mor gunz is mor tuff, who think a C-list celebrity game-show host and twice-divorced incest-curious NYC real-estate hustler is a good man simply because he makes a good show out of hating Democrats: the Republican base.
"Ve haf vays of making you (look like) cry(ing)"
Our agentz are sooo tuff, that ve can make the worst of the worst (certainly all members of Friends of Antigua) look like frightened old n-word ladies. Gif us moor time and ve make them look like toddlers and infants next. Ve haf az of jet not decided whether to add or remove bullet holes buy our magick Ey-Aye.
So, just like how all the "sources" in Russia went dark right after Trump first took office, and met privately in the Oval Office with the Russian Ambassador?
The GOP has elected TWICE a guy who is objectively a traitor to the US. And they're proud of it.
Well, this administration had already gotten our (pretty nearly all ex- by this point) allies to stops sharing some info. Just because they can't be trusted. If Patel publishes this, expect them all to just walk away. US satellite intel will take time to replace, so they may keep up with restrictions on which of their people can talk to us. But even that will be just a limited, temporary expedient.
After all, it's about intelligence. And for this administration, intelligence seems to be generally anathema.
Before the conference, his [Kash Patel] staff says he’s unhappy because he doesn’t like meetings in office settings. What he wants is social events. He wants Premier soccer games. He wants to go jet skiing. He’d like a helicopter tour. Everyone who heard about this was like: Hold on. Is he really going to ask the MI5 director to go jet skiing instead of meeting? The schedule is set, and every Five Eyes partner is doing this. They can’t just say that he’s not participating and instead he wants to go to a Premier soccer game. This is a job, guys.
...
On that trip, the heads of intelligence for the Five Eyes went to Windsor Castle and met with the king. There was a photo taken of all the Five Eyes people, some of whom are nondisclosed, meaning their affiliation with the British intelligence service isn’t public. The Brits forwarded that picture as a keepsake for the individuals. They prefaced it with, This isn’t to be shared. But Kash has decided he wants to post it on social media. They have people trying to negotiate with the Brits about whether that’s possible. They’re fighting with the director’s office, like: You cannot post this. Do not do that. And they’re arguing, He wants a picture out.
The whole of the UK, even Farage, is furious with Trump over his remarks about the rest of NATO:
"We've never needed them, we have never really asked anything of them. They'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan and they did, they stayed a little back, a little off the front lines"
457 British soldiers were killed in Afghanistan, and many more were injured.
This is the only time NATO's Article five collective defence provisions have been invoked.
Trump stayed 9000 miles away from the front lines in Vietnam, having persuaded a friendly podiatrist to diagnose him with bone spurs in his heels.
It says something about the character of these people that they would lie about making someone cry - not that they made someone cry and denied it, but that they didn't make someone cry while falsely claiming they did.
What kind of people are they trying to appeal to?
I'm sure it has more to do with making the protesters look like weak little babies than beating their chests about making someone cry, but it boils down to the same thing as far as I can tell.
It's just that they are constrained by the fact that the truth never seems to fit with their needs or desires. So the only way to maintain their (and, at least for the grifters, more impirtantly) and their dupes "alternate reality" is to lie. Doctoring evidence being just one of many techniques for that.
lj: I had never read the whole of The Cure of Troy, only the end. The beginning which you quote is absolutely wonderful. I've just ordered the book - thank you for bringing this to ObWi.
On “Moral insanity”
>I remember him saying that Trump was ‘the most consequential president in our lifetime’
i've been thinking the same thing.
if you disregard the direction of the things he's done and only focus on their magnitude, it's hard to say he hasn't changed far more than anyone since FDR. the problem is that all he's done is negative.
also, re Tacitus the blogger - he's a reason a few of us are here. back in the mists, his blog was a place where people could try to seriously discuss things (the Iraq invasion being the primary thing). and a lot of the early ObWi crowd were also Tacitus regulars. there was even interlinking. some of us followed those regulars from Tacitus to ObWi. for a while, Travino seemed like one of the sane Republicans. he grew out of it.
"
I understand that one can’t blame the original Tacitus for the sins of the nouveau Tacman, but I have to wonder about the connection in Brooks’ mind.
LOL, classic!
As requested, I went looking for Jamelle Bouie's response, but it's not out yet, obvs.
as you note, Brooks is certainly not a favorite of mine.
Nor of russell's, and probably various others here. It's interesting, but I realise I don't really have favourites. I read the arguments of the various commentators, and sometimes I think they're worthwhile, and sometimes not. Quite frequently, people with whom I've deeply disagreed on other subjects say things I think are worth considering, or a hopeful sign from commentators who might influence a constituency with whom I very much disagree (like David Frum), and I take some comfort in that.
I guess, quite properly, everybody's mileage varies....
"
Thanks for the David Brooks link, though let me rag on it a bit. I wish he had spent a little less time the previous 2 years claiming that everyone who was pointing out the direction this clown car was rolling had their hair on fire and a little more time putting up some resistance, even if only by observing it in a column or at a speaking event. I remember him saying that Trump was 'the most consequential president in our lifetime', which sounds a lot like the sentence in the reference letter "When you come to know him as we know him, you will appreciate him as we appreciate him."
The column has Brooks going back to Tacitus, but it would have been nice if he invoked Tacitus to discuss some other points of the MAGA movement, perhaps noting after one of those circle jerk cabinet meetings that 'Flatterers are the worst kind of enemies' or, in considering the whole cult of MAGA "In their ignorance they called it culture, when it was part of their enslavement."
Brooks has spent a lot of time claiming that the judiciary would ultimately function to stop Trump and that what people should do is stay at their desks. He's still playing the same games when he says
And no, I don’t think America is headed toward anything like a Rome-style collapse. Our institutions are too strong, and our people, deep down, still have the same democratic values.
I think in response to the line about how everyone needed to stay at their desks, Jamelle Bouie said that this is really hard when the desk is being sold for parts. (I hope you can post Bouie's reply to Brooks, he's weighed in a few times in response, I think, and I'm sure that it will be worth reading)
Battle hardened vets on the blog can also note that Tacitus was the nom de blog of one Josh Trevino (the tilde over the n came later), who got into some problems with editorials on Malaysian politics, but, like a bad penny, pops up again and again. I understand that one can't blame the original Tacitus for the sins of the nouveau Tacman, but I have to wonder about the connection in Brooks' mind. The Tacitus quote "The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws" embodies one notion that has gotten us into this mess, so a little reflection might be in order from Brooks, though that is not his strong suit.
Again, apologies for ragging on the article, but as you note, Brooks is certainly not a favorite of mine.
"
Sir Rod Stewart released a video statement about Trump's diss of UK soldiers.
That Tacticus quote is right on the money-which is why the actions in Portland and Minneapolis are so important and inspiring. There's no giving in to cynicism there and a strong assertion of the moral values the dictator is trying to destroy.
"
OK, on lj's formulation that this thread is about American reaction (as opposed to foreign reaction) to Trump, this is David Brooks in today's NYT. I know he is not any kind of favourite on ObWi, but since it is decades since I read Tacitus I was very struck by this:
Tacitus was especially good at describing the effect the tyrant has on the people around him. When the tyrant first takes power, there is a “rush into servitude” as great swarms of sycophants suck up to the great man. The flattery must forever escalate and grow more fawning, until every follower’s dignity is shorn away. Then comes what you might call the disappearance of the good, as morally healthy people lie low in order to survive. Meanwhile, the whole society tends to be anesthetized. The relentless flow of appalling events eventually overloads the nervous system; the rising tide of brutality, which once seemed shocking, comes to seem unremarkable.
As the disease of tyranny progresses, citizens may eventually lose the habits of democracy — the art of persuasion and compromise, interpersonal trust, an intolerance for corruption, the spirit of freedom, the ethic of moderation. “It is easier to crush men’s spirits and their enthusiasm than to revive them,” Tacitus wrote.
https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/23/opinion/trump-authoritarian-power.html?unlocked_article_code=1.G1A.6RhQ.aLVPTM4t9pmB&smid=url-share
On “Carney’s speech”
I suppose that it all bleeds together, but my thought was that this thread might focus on foreign reaction to Trump, while the other post was about the mental gymnastics the people who support Trump engage in.
"
I keep thinking of it as Trump's Bored of Peace. Because he certainly does seem to be. Who needs peace, as long as he's got a supply of "losers" (whether ICE thugs or the US military) to do the fighting and dying for him.
"
So, utterly unsure where to post this but - I haven't been that keen on the Guardian's newish cartoonist, but this did seem perfect:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2026/jan/22/ben-jennings-donald-trump-board-of-peace-cartoon
"
Sorry, I didn't know we were discussing the very same thing on two threads, this and the Moral Insanity one! I must say, I think the name of that one is perfectly appropriate.
On “Moral insanity”
Yup. Four educational deferments, and eventually one bone spur exemption. But it's OK, we do know that his own personal Vietnam was risking STIs, and that was the "front line" he bravely risked...
"
All the worse given tRump's phantom bone spurs. The f**king gall...
"
That poem is exactly right. In terms of civic involvement, sociopathy is the norm with R base voters, combined with self-aggrandizement and self-pity. I wonder if there has always been a percentage of the population that is like this or is or were they created by Faux and the rest of the hate propaganda network? Or always there, but more apparent now, give the decades Republicans have spent encouraging this mindset?
"
Meanwhile, talking of Moral Insanity, this is an extract from The Critic. I don't agree with the entirety of the piece (fairly reflexively anti-Europe), but you can't disagree with this:
Trump’s latest insult was to sneer that non-American troops who served in Afghanistan “stayed a little back”. This ignobly underplays the sacrifices of thousands of coalition troops — including those of 457 Britons who died — and is being received with outrage online. Actually, I am not sure I have ever seen such bipartisan condemnation.
Something else that Trump said seemed almost worse, though. “We’ve never needed them,” he said, dismissively, of his NATO allies. Now, I actually agree that the US didn’t “need” NATO support in 2001. It didn’t need to embark on a foolish and destructive war in Afghanistan, which led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people before the Taliban simply took control again. But it certainly claimed to need a “worldwide coalition”. So, if anything, Trump should be apologetic rather than dismissive. He is sneering at people for not sacrificing enough for the sake of American hubris.
Given that, for example, coalition casualties in Afghanistan in response to 9/11 included:
USA 7.96 deaths per million of population
Denmark 7.82 deaths per million of population
UK 7.25 deaths per million of population
I'm sure you can imagine, even if you haven't seen them, the responses ricocheting around the world from former servicemen to Trump's and Hegseth's comments. One I've just seen from someone called Andrew Fox, alongside a picture of a chestful of medals, says
I always thought it was super nice of the Americans to give me that badge for “staying a little off” from the front lines.
It’s nice to be appreciated!
American friends, especially my former brothers in arms - I’m sorry your President shames you daily. You deserve better.
On “Rememory”
>What kind of people are they trying to appeal to?
the same kind of insecure oafs who think mocking people who aren't just like them improves their lives, who think rolling coal is a good response to people who are just trying to ride a bike, who think life-size decals of a tied-up Biden make their trucks cool, who think mor gunz is mor tuff, who think a C-list celebrity game-show host and twice-divorced incest-curious NYC real-estate hustler is a good man simply because he makes a good show out of hating Democrats: the Republican base.
"
"Ve haf vays of making you (look like) cry(ing)"
Our agentz are sooo tuff, that ve can make the worst of the worst (certainly all members of Friends of Antigua) look like frightened old n-word ladies. Gif us moor time and ve make them look like toddlers and infants next. Ve haf az of jet not decided whether to add or remove bullet holes buy our magick Ey-Aye.
On “Moral insanity”
So, just like how all the "sources" in Russia went dark right after Trump first took office, and met privately in the Oval Office with the Russian Ambassador?
The GOP has elected TWICE a guy who is objectively a traitor to the US. And they're proud of it.
"
Well, this administration had already gotten our (pretty nearly all ex- by this point) allies to stops sharing some info. Just because they can't be trusted. If Patel publishes this, expect them all to just walk away. US satellite intel will take time to replace, so they may keep up with restrictions on which of their people can talk to us. But even that will be just a limited, temporary expedient.
After all, it's about intelligence. And for this administration, intelligence seems to be generally anathema.
"
this is just insane.
https://www.eschatonblog.com/2026/01/the-best-guy-in-trump-adminsitration.html
On “Carney’s speech”
Pro Bono - The whole of the UK, even Farage, is furious with Trump over his remarks about the rest of NATO
Rightly so. He's a moral contagion. He is the hollow man. He is a headpiece stuffed with straw.
He is the reason no one should ever again trust the US. Collectively we are petty, ungrateful, and untrustworthy.
"
The whole of the UK, even Farage, is furious with Trump over his remarks about the rest of NATO:
"We've never needed them, we have never really asked anything of them. They'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan and they did, they stayed a little back, a little off the front lines"
457 British soldiers were killed in Afghanistan, and many more were injured.
This is the only time NATO's Article five collective defence provisions have been invoked.
Trump stayed 9000 miles away from the front lines in Vietnam, having persuaded a friendly podiatrist to diagnose him with bone spurs in his heels.
On “Rememory”
It says something about the character of these people that they would lie about making someone cry - not that they made someone cry and denied it, but that they didn't make someone cry while falsely claiming they did.
What kind of people are they trying to appeal to?
I'm sure it has more to do with making the protesters look like weak little babies than beating their chests about making someone cry, but it boils down to the same thing as far as I can tell.
"
Oh, I think they could.
It's just that they are constrained by the fact that the truth never seems to fit with their needs or desires. So the only way to maintain their (and, at least for the grifters, more impirtantly) and their dupes "alternate reality" is to lie. Doctoring evidence being just one of many techniques for that.
"
I don't know that they can tell the truth. I don't think they have it in them.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2026/jan/22/white-house-ice-protest-arrest-altered-image
On “Moral insanity”
lj: I had never read the whole of The Cure of Troy, only the end. The beginning which you quote is absolutely wonderful. I've just ordered the book - thank you for bringing this to ObWi.
"
The next few lines too, which I love for how they render the mess of us.
...
I hate it, I always hated it, and I am
A part of it myself.
And a part of you,
For my part is the chorus, and the chorus
Is more or less a borderline between
The you and the me and the it of it.
*Comment archive for non-registered commenters assembled by email address as provided.